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Monocock
11-07-2010, 02:03 AM
I recently bought a Mk 5 that has a 912s installed. I am summarising my prop experiences as I thought it might help others who are looking to change props this winter.

When I bought the aircraft it had a 68 inch GSC ground adjustable on it. I just could not get the engine to stop vibrating, especially in the 3500 - 4500 rpm range. I tried everything from carb sync'ing, checking the mountings right through to balancing the prop dynamically. But, still she vibrated like hell. We eventually worked out what it was and realised that the tracking had moved from 1/16 inch error on one blade when it was installed to half an inch error within 6 hours of flying!!! There was nothing we could do to put this amount of error right and the blade just seemed to get more and more out of track the more I flew.

As a last resort I tried a friend's Kiev to do some ground run-ups with. It was remarkable how smooth it ran, right through the power range. So, I ordered one and installed it last week.

Setting it up was easy and within an hour we had a static of 5,200 rpm. I flew her for the first time with it installed yesterday and it was like a different aircraft. Smooth as silk and very responsive. The climb rate is 1400 fpm and 100 kts is easy at 5,000 rpm. 4400 rpm (or will I get deleted from this forum for suggesting such a low cruise power:rolleyes:) gives 75 kts.

The prop wasn't too expensive and the dealer was really helpful. I have to get a spacer to be able to fit the spinner/backplate but will just wait for this to arrive.

All in all I can highly recommend the Kiev. I know I have only done a couple of hours with it but so far, so good.

kitfox812
12-06-2010, 08:29 PM
I have to agree. I just turned over 40 hours on my kiev after 650 on "another" brand and I am very pleased to say the least. More RPM on takeoff and more performance. I am sorry I didn't know about this prop when I started out.

catz631
12-07-2010, 07:03 AM
Me too,smooth as glass !

sdemeyer
12-07-2010, 10:28 AM
Dick, did you have to replace your spinner with the new Kiev? Also, what model did you finally end up with?

Thanks,
Scott

kitfox812
12-07-2010, 10:36 AM
If a prop can be a work of art, that sure is. My before and after pics are over in the Engine section. A friend was watching me do a 45 degree takeoff and said the prop was bent forward into a cone. I sure hope that is ok and the Carbon Fiber is strong enough to take it

catz631
12-08-2010, 06:16 AM
Scott,
The spinner I had with my Warp fit fine so I used it . The prop cutouts are square and don't fit the prop planform perfectly but that's OK. Maybe later I will get the proper spinner.
I can't remember the prop model number. The info is in my prop log at my hanger (not there now)
I sure love it though ! Very quiet, smooth, and even easy on your hands during "burping".
Dick
model 4
912UL

Monocock
02-05-2011, 01:18 AM
I have a 68 inch Kiev 3 blader on my 912s and getting a 5200 static is easy. It is the '263' model. Kiev also recommend the 283 (72 inch) model for the 912s. Static is achieved with a slightly finer pitch setting than on the 263 but you wouldn't need to be 'fully fine'. In a Mk 4 with a 100 hp Rotax and a Kiev, I hope your limbs are attached firmly to your body!! She is going to go like a rocket!!!!

The 283 is commonly used on the 912s as is the 263. However, on the 912 (80hp) it is generally only the 263 that is used (in the UK anyway).



PS And an update since my first post above - 25 hours on I am still very pleased with it. The pitch has stayed exactly as I set it and all torque settings remain unchanged. The spacer is now on and all is good.

catz631
02-05-2011, 06:31 AM
Pete,
Monocock is correct. I used the 72inch at first on my 912UL but ended up going to the 68inch dia as the 72 did not work as well on my lower horsepower engine.
Set the pitch so that you achieve around 5200 rpm (WOT) on your take off roll and you will be good to go. (initially around 10-12 degrees on the protractor I think..Its been awhile,you will have to experiment)
Check the pitch angle on each blade when you torque it in thirds as it can change.
Ted Bryant @ Kiev is very helpful with installation info. If you can't get him, give me a call @ 850-304-7371 (cell) if you have any questions. I have installed 3 of these and love them !.
Dick

N82HB
07-12-2011, 09:25 PM
I just installed the 283 Kiev on my Kitfox IV - 1200 912S. I had a 72" Warp Drive and I am not happy with what I have done. I have tweaked the pitch settings a few times and am unable to find a spot where it will compare to the Warp. That ugly old Warp is a performer! I will keep this thing on for a bit, but I am sure it will go up for sale (cheap). It is very smooth and quiet, and the start up is way nicer. But performance is what matters to me and the airspeed and vsi are saying get rid of it. If anyone has a static rpm or pitch that they think is magical I'll try it, but otherwise not impressed.

It looks great, but that is not enough for me. I am glad I still have the Warp.
Kelly

Monocock
07-12-2011, 11:11 PM
Kelly

What static are you showing?
Are the blades all exactly the same pitch?
What aspect of the performance is disappointing?

I am amazed that you are unhappy with it. I know of many people who have gone from WD props to Kievs and all are amazed at the difference it makes.

catz631
07-13-2011, 05:30 AM
Kelly,
If you decide to sell the Kiev for cheap, let me know.
I had to work for a while to get the pitch spot on for my aircraft but now I love it and wouldn't go back to the Warp. In fact my Warp is mounted on the wall and at some time I will sell it for cheap I think.
Dick

N82HB
07-13-2011, 07:29 AM
I have flown it at two dofferent settings. Once my static was 5400 rpm and I thought that would be close enough for a flight or two. My Warp was set to the 5200 rpm limit established by Rotax. With the flatter pitch of the Kiev I figured it would be fun to try. I was climbing at 1100 fpm instead of my normal 1600. I leveled off and it was slow (90), but that was expected. I repitched it and this time the static was around 5060. Ted, from Kiev, said they will often pitch to around 5000 rpm static, even though that is against the Rotax advisory. So I thought this could be fun to try, for the cruise speed. I leveled off and got up to about 102 instead of my normal 110 to 112.

So I have found it to be slower at a cruise setting and less climb in a climb setting than my Warp in a middle setting. I am real happy about their protractor, so I am comfortable that the blades are REALLY close to the same pitch.

I love the look and it is dramatically smoother than anything else I have been near. I do like that, but the Kitfox performance is most important to me. I am not giving up yet, but getting pretty disappointed.

I am looking for help finding the magic in this propeller.

Thanks,
Kelly

kitfox2009
07-13-2011, 07:58 AM
A couple of days ago I tested my Vixen (912UL,70 inch Patriot IVO IFA) for climb performance. I climbed out from CYYF (1120 ASL) at about 70 IAS and 5500RPM for 19 minutes. I leveled off at 12,000 ASL!!!. At full throttle and finer pitch I could still achieve 5200+RPM and close to 300FPM.
Needless to say I am pretty happy with this!!
I am not saying this is the BEST propeller possible but I cannot see how ANY fixed pitch propeller can match performance of an in flight adjustable.



Don

Monocock
07-13-2011, 10:32 AM
Hi Don

Whilst in principle I completely agree with you, I have recently been talking to a friend with a S7 that has the same engine as my S5. He has an IFA Ecoprop. His take off performance is a fair bit further than mine and his cruise is the same.

So, in terms of physics and expected performance I would agree with you. However in practice, I would never take my Kiev off for an IFA. I would be out of pocket for no extra performance and just added weight. I accept that this situation is unique and that the majority of aircraft will perform better with an IFA. However, this situation proves that there are always exceptions to the rule. I don't believe I would beat my 1700 fpm and 110 kt cruise very easily and if I did, would it really be worth the £3000 to do it? I don't believe so.

I have been wondering why Kelly isn't finding an improvement in performance with his Kiev and I just can't work it out. Perhaps it's yet another unexplainable situation (like mine).

EDITED TO SAY: I SEE SOMEONE HAS REMOVED SOME POSTS BELOW SO IT LOOKS AS THOUGH IM TALKING TO MYSELF!

Monocock
07-13-2011, 11:25 AM
That's the average of a reciprocal heading measured via GPS, so effectively TAS. Granted, the 110 kts is at 5500 rpm. At 5000 rpm I am getting 100 kts which is my preferred power setting for cruise. I would be interested to know if anybody thinks an IFA would provide me with a better cruise at that kind of setting.

On the basis that the static is 5200 I don't think the 1700 fpm is bad. This is 1 up and with three quarters (70 litres) fuel from sea level at 15c. It is the kind of climb I would expect with a much higher static (finer pitch) hence the reason I'm so impressed with it. I also have quite a low empty weight compared to a S7 so I also accept that helps a lot too. Two up (same fuel and temp) I can expect 1000 fpm which is quite a big dent in performance.

I genuinely don't want my quoting of performance figures to sound like I'm willy waving but I just wanted to get across that I don't think an IFA offers a draggy airframe like the Kitfox the level of benefits that it might do with a slippery ship. I don't doubt there IS a performance enhancement with one installed, I just don't think for me it is justifiable based on current performance figures.

I'm a little biased in that I think the Mk 5 is the perfect balance of airframe and weight out of all the KF's but I do also know of people who can easily get similar performance (less maybe 10% cruise) in a Mk 4 with G/A props. It is for these reasons that I think the Kitfox is such an utterly superb aircraft all round no matter what model ! I want a second one!!

Crikey, ok it is actual SOG that is quoted above, my terminological oversight for which I sincerely apologise Sir!!

At 1500 feet AMSL I think we might be in the realms of disputing how much a 10% tyre wear on your car affects then indicated speed on your speedo!! :rolleyes:

cap01
07-13-2011, 12:44 PM
willie waving ? never heard that term over here in the colonies

catz631
07-13-2011, 04:24 PM
chuck,
I think "willie waving" is British for a "pecker contest"
Dick

N82HB
07-13-2011, 08:06 PM
Monocock,
What propeller do you have? Is it the 283?
What degree do you have your prop set to?
I am not quite ready to give up on it, but right now I am still not happy. I just made a 250 mile cross-country and I am still looking for the magic.
Thanks,
Kelly

kitfox812
07-13-2011, 09:52 PM
I have the Kiev for the Rotax 912uls with 2.43 gear reduction. I don't have my paperwork with me but I think it was the 283. It replaced a Powerfin which is now on the wall for sale. I tried the 5200 rpm on takeoff and got a fantastic climb rate but the wot rpm was over 5800 rpm. The "other" site had a thing about setting the prop so the wot rpm was below 5800 in case of throttle cable failure. I set my pitch so the wot rpm was about 5700. My climb rate suffered but my cruise went up about 5mph. The word on the other site was that the static rpm is just a starting point and I agree. BTW, I get 5200rpm within 10 seconds after liftoff then start my climb. I like this pitch setting and will keep it for awhile....Great Prop!!!!

Monocock
07-13-2011, 10:48 PM
Kelly

No, mine is the 263. The 283 has not yet been approved in the UK for use on the 912 even though it is deemed by Kiev to be the most suitable match for the engine.

As for pitch, the Kiev pitch setting tools aren't that standard (look like they have been made by a 6 year old at nursery school !!!) so are more of a "relative comparison" than a definitive angle. I just have my static set at 5200. I seem to recall that shows 16 on the Kiev scale.

N82HB
07-14-2011, 07:44 AM
I plan to do another repitch tonight afterwork is done; I'll fly it tomorrow.
Thanks,
Kelly

N82HB
07-15-2011, 11:46 AM
I have been busy flying a lot, but not the Kitfox. Been busy working with a Moose on floats and also my day job Beaver.
I'll repitch it tomorrow morning, Saturday. Then I will fly it Sunday; I don't have to work on Sunday til 3pm.
I am a little concerned about which way should I pitch it. I feel I am short on both ends. I am currently thinking courser.
Maybe I'll have time for more than one try.
Otherwise the Warp will go back on when I am home on Tuesday.
Kelly

Monocock
07-15-2011, 11:53 AM
My gut instinct would also be to try it a bit coarser. The reason being is that I seem to recall when I once had mine pitched slightly too fine (5500 static) the take off roll wasn't any shorter than it is now with a coarser setting (5100/5200 static). This is just my experience though so might not be of use.

I hope you get it sorted. If not, I will be sorry to hear you have gone back to the WD. If I was in the US I would also buy it from you!!

N82HB
07-17-2011, 01:27 PM
I am becoming more optimistic.

I added another degree of pitch and the performance is coming together. I hope that another .5 degree will bring it even closer to what I am looking for.

There are several things that are different about this prop that I don't understand. The first is that so far climb rate and cruise speed are both increasing with pitch and that is unheard of. The other part of that is that my climb rate is still getting better even with super low static rpm. The last thing that is throwing me for a loop is that I am off the gauge sent with the prop for set up.

My Warp was set to 5220 static. Which gave 1600 fpm and 109 mph cruise.

My first successful setting for the Kiev was at 5060 static. Which only gave 1000 fpm and 104 mph.

Yesterdays repitch has me at 4950 static. This gives me 1350 fpm and 113 mph.

Ted from Kievpropamerica said I should be looking for 5000 rpm static for success. When I asked him about the pitch setting he said to start at the top of the scale and go from there. The top of the scale was 13 degress and I am currently at around 15. Another Kiev owner mentioned he was around 16.

I know I am going to light some people off about the 5200 rpm static bulletin from rotax. But this is short term flight test, so it'll be fine. But thanks for worrying.

More to come,
Kelly

kitfox812
07-17-2011, 03:46 PM
Those numbers are almost exactly the same as mine. Glad to get some reinforcement. Again, I lift the wheels off in less than 200 ft then fly level for about 5 to 10 sec to 5200 and I'm off at 1300 fpm climb and about 112mph at 5300 rpm. When I could lift off at 5200 rpm and pull it back into a 1500fpm climb at 70mph was about 1/32" less pitch. It is a pretty hokey pitch tool but I can't find one that will fit around all those curves in the prop.

catz631
07-18-2011, 05:00 AM
Kelly,
Thanks for doing the flight tests on the Kiev. I have varied my pitch about 4 times on my 80 horse but stopped when I reached the 5200 static and accepted what it gave me(per the bulletin)
However after your tests ,perhaps I can squeeze a little more performance out of my Kiev. I am actually getting about 5300-5400 at the end of my takeoff roll so I probably have some room to increase my pitch a bit. I ,like you, thought that would decrease my climb and I didn't want that to happen.
I of course don't have the climb or speed you guys get (lower hp,bush gear,fat tires,etc) but if there is room for improvement.....
Dick

N82HB
07-18-2011, 06:33 AM
I think you will be surprised what happens with the next .75 to 1 degree you put in.

I will be putting in my weekly 240 mile cross country today and I'll see how it goes. I think I could still see some improvement from another .25 to .5 degree; I still haven't seen the progress start tapering off yet.

It'll take a few weeks I think to see what this thing will actually do.

Kelly

Monocock
07-18-2011, 01:58 PM
Kelly

Do you think we might hear you say you like the Kiev soon?!!:)

Dorsal
07-18-2011, 03:31 PM
Following this thread with great interest, thanks for posting updates.

N82HB
07-18-2011, 05:12 PM
I have now made it home with the Kiev at the new settings. I think I have finally got the cruise speed to where it is OK and I can live with the climb degredation. But I feel I am overloading the 912s to get those numbers. I will make a few more flights, but I am pretty sure the Warp is headed back on.
I am really surprised how much better the performance is at both ends with the Warp. I would have never expected it. I have put significant time into the Kiev and feel I have given it a fair try.
As for my liking it...
There is no question I like it. It is so much smoother all the way around. It gets rid of the jolt at start up and shut down, which is truly amazing to feel. All the parts are of high quality. For instance the spinner backing plate has a lip for making sure it is seated properly. I have never seen this on any aircraft before, and I am always at the airport! It is a very high quality product and I will miss certain aspects of it, but I am purely looking for the shortest takeoff and crazy climb rate, supported with a reasonable cruise speed.

If anyone is interested in trying this for themselves I will be putting it up for sale.

Here is what I have:
Black Kiev 283 (less than 6 hours TT)
White Spinner and Back Plate
Mounting hardware for that setup
1.2" spacer for clearance issues on some installations
Mounting Hardware for that setup too
Installation Instructions
Protractor

Price will be $750 plus shipping; this is better than $1400 new and an 8 week wait while they have your money.

Let me know,
Kelly

Dorsal
07-19-2011, 03:28 AM
Wish I understood why your numbers on both ends went up with increased pitch I may be interested in running the same experiment on my 7.

catz631
07-20-2011, 05:05 AM
Kelly,
I would be interested in the spinner and back plate for the Kiev. After much thinking, I really don't need the prop as mine is fine and I have the 80 hp.
The spinner I have now came off my Warp.(hanging on the wall) The fit of the Kiev spinner would be better as it more closly matches the Kiev curves.
If you sell the prop and the guy doesn't want the spinner,please let me know.
I have had my Kiev installed for almost 2 years now (I think)I still love the smoothness. It is much easier on my gearbox . I no longer have the kickback / run on that I had with the Warp at shutdown so I will stay with the Kiev. I think your assesment of its performance is pretty much spot on.
The few mph difference between the Kiev and the Warp are not enough for me to sacrifice the excellent "flat plate" effect the Kiev gives me during approach. I can sure control the approach nicely ! Its turbine smoothness is of course legendary. And to be able to run the engine at lower rpm with out the gearbox sounding like a tub of ball bearings in a washing machine, is nice too!
I will give the pitch another shot when I get around to it to see if I can tweek a little more out of it without over stressing the engine case. I know I can probably go the 1/2 to 1 degree you mention.
ThanKs again for reporting your test results !
Dick

WWhunter
07-20-2011, 06:28 AM
Kelly,
I may be interested in that prop. I currently have a two blade Warp Drive and I am wondering if the Kiev would work a little better. The Warp just seems 'rough' to me. More vibration then I like.
I will also be going on Amphibs soon and would like the metal leading edge over the standard edge on my Warp Drive.
My engine is a 912UL but has been modified with the Experimental Performance Inc. 10.5:1 pistons. Supposedly this gives 95 HP. The gear box is the 2.273:1 reduction and from Kiev's website the 283 is not listed as applicable. I need to call Kiev and get the answer.
Keith

N82HB
07-20-2011, 08:07 AM
I am sorry to say that the prop and spinner are now sold and in a box.

Keith,
In my research it sounds like the only time people were totally disappointed with their choice was when they went too long. That is a little against the thoughts of floatplane operations. Length is the key to the best performance and that would say you need to look for something other than the Kiev. I do not know what that prop is yet, but I might have some news for you in the next month.

Right now I would tell you I would be ready to buy a 3-blade Warp of 72". It would be the best I have seen for amphib use; just remember the leading edge when ordering. I would keep an eye out on e-bay too. If you aren't in a hurry you will be able to get what you want from there. Used Warps seem to bring around $500 and that is great performance for the dollar.

The guys at Warp say the straight blade will give better "out of the hole", but it hurts your cruise speed. Just to keep in mind.

Kelly

WWhunter
07-20-2011, 09:30 AM
Kelly,
Thanks alot. Bummer though about it being sold. I wanted to try it on wheels also. :(
I totally agree that person needs a long prop for seaplane flying. I will probably talk to Warp Drive at Oshkosh and see what they recommend. The two blade I have now performs well on wheels but since it doesn't have metal leading edge I am hesitant to use it on floats.

Av8r3400
07-20-2011, 01:53 PM
Just remember: 72" three blade, straight blade, nickel inlay, is over the maximum allowable weight for a 912 and will wreck your gearbox and/or sprag assembly.

Monocock
07-21-2011, 12:03 AM
In my research it sounds like the only time people were totally disappointed with their choice was when they went too long

Sounds like you have hit the nail on the head there Kelly. I'm rather amazed at the performance figures you weren't getting with the longer Kiev in comparison to mine with my shorter one. I am now wondering if I too would suffer a drop in performance if I had bought the longer one. One would assume that the longer one would give more performance, not less. I can't help wonder why the 283 is deemed as the more suitable one for 100hp over the 263.:confused:

If this long / short difference isn't the reason then my 1700 fpm climb can only be down to the Mk 5 airframe as that climb is with a flying weight of 1135 lbs.

I'm still a bit confused......!

catz631
07-21-2011, 05:27 AM
I originally ordered the longer blade Kiev and tried it on my 80 hp model 4. I did not get good results so I sold it to a friend within a week to use on his 100hp Paradise P-1. He replaced his Warp with it and has been very happy with the prop.
I then ordered the shorter Kiev and that has worked out well for me. I have about (within 2-3 mph) the same cruise as I had with my Warp but with alot more benefits. I will tweek it a little more when I get the chance, to see if I can get a little more out of it. I am close to the "sweet spot" as Ted Bryant says.
In any case I do have a Warp 3 blade taper tip with the nickle leading edges available if you are interested. The prop is at the top end of the recommended weights for the Rotax 912 but is within the limits. It was the original prop that came with my plane and is in excellent condition. The hub pattern is an early one as my engine is mid 90's.
As I have mentioned in my previous posts, I was having trouble with the prop turning backwards a few turns on engine shutdown on occasion. (much like old car run on or a J-3 prop turning backwards on shutdown).
I saw the Kiev on some Highlanders, loved it and have had one since. I have not had a single case of 'run on " with it. I had previously called Lockwood about the run on problem I had been having with the Warp installed and they told me I was the only one in the country that had that problem....it figures ! (just like I was the only one that ever had an oil filter unscrew itself... BS, I safety wire now !!!)
Anyway,the Warp is on the wall and at some point I will sell it. I have kept it as a spare but haven't needed it.(looks cool with all the aviation stuff on my hanger walls,beer signs,etc) It is a tough prop well suited for water work.
Dick

WWhunter
07-21-2011, 05:50 AM
Dave,
I am definitely interested in the prop you have. I am going to talk to Warp Drive at Oshkosh and will get a better idea of what I might need.
Could you send me the particulars on the prop you have....if you are going to sell it.
Milton, FL huh? I was stationed at AF Special Ops Hurlburt Fld. Many years ago and worked in Ft. Walton for several years. My wife is from there and her parents recently moved to Defuniak Springs. I have a place in Navarre that I am currently renting out. Wished I would have found this site earlier, I was just down there a few months ago. I'll have to look you up next time I get there. I was actually out at the Milton airport looking for a Husky that was supposed to be there for sale.
Keith

catz631
07-21-2011, 06:05 AM
I will get the specs for you and get a picture of it.
I fly to the Milton airport every other day or so to drink coffee and airport bum.On occasion I talk to some of the new guys going into Navy/Air Force flight training. They have a civilian prep school there now. (sure glad I am done with that)
My hanger is on a grass strip in Chumukla (north of Pace,Fl)
The airport is 16FL...J-22 Ranch airport.

WWhunter
07-21-2011, 07:13 AM
Dick,

LOL! I am betting I drove past your strip this spring. I was wandering all over the area looking for little strips. Guess next time I will have to stop in.

I would definitely appreciate any pictures and specifications.

By the way, my son just graduated from Embry-Riddle with a degree in Aerospace Engineering and was commisioned into the AF. First one in the family to get commisioned out of many generations of enlisted members. He was lucky enough to get awarded a pilot slot in AF pilot traing and is currently stationed at Laughlin AFB, TX. He is currently in Peublo. Co for initial flight training then heads back to Laughlin. Yep, I'm a proud papa!

WWhunter
07-22-2011, 07:10 AM
I spoke with Darrel at Warp Drive and since they had the info on the Warp taper tip I currently have on the plane he informed me that I have the new style hub so I am guessing the prop you have will not fit my engine. He also stated that the straight blade is much better for floats than a taper tip.