Model IV-1200 / Model IV-1050 How do you Know ?

[kmach]

Hi, I have come across a Model IV-1200 for sale ,at least that's what it is advertised as. What are the distinguishing features if any,that a person can identify the aircraft as a model IV-1200 or model IV-1050 ? I received info from the seller saying it was a Denney kit, so I want to make sure it is a 1200. Its aircraft ID plate has a gross of 1232 lbs and a serial number that doesn't correspond to any models in the history pages . I know the serial number on the fuselage tubing would help identify model weight and manufacturer (what are the locations again of the manufacturers serial number on the fuselage frame?), but if it is covered up , what else can a person use ? Vertical fin size? rudder size? anything else ? It has a 912s on it , if that makes any difference. Thanks all; Kevin

[Av8r3400]

The size of the fin will be an easy tell from a 1050 to a 1200.

What is the s/n that you were given? My 1200 is a "Classic" model IV and the s/n starts with a "C".

[t j]

Kevin, put a pair of calipers on the lift struts, landing gear tubes, spar and strut carry through tubes. They are one inch OD on the 1200. The rudder is 53" tall.

The serial number on the classic 4 is on the triangle of metal that the front of the horizontal stab bolts to. Not sure but on the model 4 1200 the serial number may be on the flat metal that the two center seat belt shoulder harnesses attach to.

The builder may have put their own serial number on the data plate.

Edited, oops, you cant tell the difference with these measurements. See post below.

[SkyPirate]

on the model 4's serial numbers 1723 and up are 1200 's 1722 and down are 1050's

Chase

[jdmcbean]

Chase is correct.. The ONLY way to tell is by serial number. Measurments will not.

[kmach]

This is the serial number I was given from the seller ,CO4020294 , It does not match any numbers on the kitfox homepage- history- model IV-1200 serial numbers, like mentioned earlier by Chase. Are the serial numbers on the frame easy to find/read on a finished flying airframe, the one by the shoulder harness attachment point I think might be, but is the serial number at the vertical fin easily accessed/read ? Kevin

[DesertFox4]

kmach, my Kitfox is a Classic model 4 which I purchased from SkyStar (John McBean) in 2002. It has a serial number that starts with a C-0202-XXXX.
I'm pretty sure this model 4 is also a Classic 4. It would have the weldments for the nose gear conversion right from the factory. It is also strengthened around the rear gear mounting area for the landing loads when in the tri-gear configuration. The differences in the tubing in this area aren't real apparent unless you know what your looking for. The best tell tale is the nose gear attachments. If it's the Classic , it is the latest iteration of the Model 4 lineage. It would be hard to discern from other indications as any 4-1200 could have any Kitfox 4 mod on it including any of the Speedster mods.
Also the builder has registered it as 1232 lbs. This would coincide with the FAA's almost adopting that number for max take off weight under the Sport Pilot rules. They later decided to use 1320 lbs. My guess is the builder wanted all the lbs's he could legally get and 1232 was floating around at the same time my model 4 was finished. BTW. My Classic 4 is also registered at 1232 lbs.
Also the Rotax 912S 100 hp was getting to be a popular engine choice then so again I would think it is a Classic 4. Not many model 4's yet have the 912S compared to the 80 hp 912 although some are converting now.
Good luck. Sounds like it'll be a great performing aircraft. Let me know if you don't take it. I have a friend in Colorado that may be interested. :)

[HighWing]

I agree mostly.

The serial number of my 1993 IV-1200 was CCU008. This converts to the third month of the third year after 1990 - the U is for the standard Model IV-1200 vs. the Speedster which would have a S in the U position. The 008 is the eighth kit shipped that month. This was the initial new numbering system Skystar inititiated after the acquisition. I did receive the kit in March of 1993. I have also spoken to other early Skystar customers and their delivery dates are consistent with their serial numbers. My new 1992 IV-1200 kit has a serial number 1746 and was a Denney kit and was deliverd closer to the birth of the 1200. At the same time I bought this previously owned kit, a frieind bought a similar IV-1050 and it did have the shorter vertical fin and rudder. I suspect this could be one easy visual sign, but then there are the IIIs with the IV wings out there and you would have to look at the flaperon mixer and other hidden features to be sure. This would difinitely point out serial number as the key indicator, but none of the numbers suggested as indicators are within the systems involved. Maybe the C followed by the longer number is consistent with the numbering system used on the (officially designated) Classic IV, but to determine the genetics of the early IVs other numbers are involved.

This brings up the whole idea of what is a Classic IV. It has long been my understanding that the Classic designation came after a short period when the IV had been discontinued by the factory and when resurrected was given the Classic IV name a la Coka Cola after they resurrected the old formulation for their soft drink as a result of a pretty strong public reaction from their il advised formula change.

[HighWing]

I have to make a correction. I re read the responses and I believe Chase is spot on.

[Jerrytex]

So what kit would ser # JCU-104 be? Classic 4 or 4-1050

[HighWing]

My first Model IV-1200 was ordered in late 2002 from Denney, and delivered in March 2003 by Skystar. The numbering system changed with the change of ownership. My serial number was CCU-008. This refered to the third month of the third year of the decade and I think the 008 was the eighth kit delivered. My take on your number would put it as a Model IV-1200 produced in October of 1993 and the 104th kit produced. The U designates it as a long wing IV vs. the Speedster which had a S in the third letter location.

The Classic designation came after a short period when the IV was discontinued and then reintroduced with the Classic IV name. Chase is spot on regarding the serial numbers during the Denney years, and would designate the 1050 from the 1200 during that time. The numbering system then varied according to who owned the company and all numbers after the break Chase refers to would be the 1200 as well as any with the odd assortment of numbers that follow, as the 1050 was produced for only a short time ending in 1992. My present project was delivered in 1992 and holds the serial number 1746.

[jdmcbean]

So what kit would ser # JCU-104 be? Classic 4 or 4-1050

It would be a Model IV-1200.. Long Wing....

Classic IV's begin with C4xxxxxxx

What is the difference from the Model IV-1200 to the Classic IV ?
SkyStar re-named the Model IV-1200 to the Classic IV... Both are 1200 max gross weight aircraft.

The Lite² was introduced and was essentially a Classic IV without some of the options (but the options were available and most often chosen) The first couple of Lite² were tail draggers only then the conversion became available. After that the Lite² and the Classic IV's had the convertability from tail to tri.

The most common place for the serial number is as shown in the pic... front or back side.... other areas were the seat belt tabs.. either the center or sides. Not sure why the different areas other than different production managers...
It can be difficult to read if not almost impossible if the powder coating was heavy in that area and the stamp wasn't very deep.

[Jerrytex]

Thank you for the info. This is the Ser # to my new Kitfox 4 classic project. I will post pics soon. I am a newbie so I am sure I will have a lot of questions and any help is appreciated.

[HighWing]

Yours should be a Model IV-1200 delivered in October 1993. The 1050 model was superceded by the IV-1200 in 1992. Chases number sequence is for the Denney produced Model IV-1050s and 1200s. All other number combinations are specific to the owners at the time of delivery and all later IVs are 1200s, with the "Classic IV" being introduced after a short period where the "IV-1200" had been discontinued.

[Norm]

I know this is an old thread but I figure better to ask here than to post a new question about the same thing. My data plate seems to be contradictory to what is posted here. My plane was built by Skystar according to the plate. The serial number is C94070044 which i decifer as a Classic IV built as the 44th fuse in July 1994. The data plate also lists this as a Classic IV mfg in 06-10-97.
The plane has the taller 53 inch rudder so it all points to a 1200lb gross airplane. However the motor was listed as a 503 and the Gross on the plate is 1050. So the question is what gives. Do I call her the bride of Frakenstien. There are a few things that just don't add up. I wonder if the Gross was registered based on the lifting capability of the 503 and is this a 1200 plane or is it a 1050. Thoughts please.

[HighWing]

If my memory serves, the gross wt. restriction was because of the relatively lower HP of the 503.

[Av8r3400]

Norm, I believe what you may have there is a Kitfox "Lite Squared". This was the ultralight trainer version of the Kitfox offered for a while.

I believe it is just a light built (ultralight fabric, minimal panel, etc) version of the IV-1200 with the 503 installed.

[t j]

A Classic 4 with a 503 Rotax engine is limited to 1050 maximum gross weight due to the low power. It is not an air frame limitation. The good news is it makes you learn how to fly, not just push in the throttle and hang on.;)

With a Rotax 582 or 912 the maximum gross weight is 1200.

[Norm]

Norm, I believe what you may have there is a Kitfox "Lite Squared". This was the ultralight trainer version of the Kitfox offered for a while.

I believe it is just a light built (ultralight fabric, minimal panel, etc) version of the IV-1200 with the 503 installed.

Thanks for your reply Av8r3400. I thought about that as the paint was missing the PolySpray step. Thus part of the reason for the rebuild, but the Data plate from the factory is labeled Classic IV I was kind of thinking what Lowell suggests that the Gross was based on the lifting weight of the 503. Because it was built in 97 it should be a 1200 gross especially with the tall tail. The lite squared was released about 2000. The other wildcard in the works is that it is registered as an Advanced Ultralight in Canada. As such it could have been registered at 1232 gross or at least 1200. Just not sure what I got.
Norm

[Norm]

A Classic 4 with a 503 Rotax engine is limited to 1050 maximum gross weight due to the low power. The good news is it makes you learn how to fly, not just push in the throttle and hang on.;)

With a Rotax 582 or 912 the maximum gross weight is 1200.

Thanks TJ That makes sense. I got the plane with a 582, and I am changing to a 912 UL. Unfortunately I don't think I can change the registration without a bunch of paper work but I will feel safer it I get a bit heavy.
Thanks again.
Norm

[t j]

The serial number stamped on the fuselage gives you the date the fuselage was built at the factory. The data plate is stamped and installed by the builder.

Example is my kitfox. Serial #C9408 0047 ie the 47th Classic 4 fuselage produced at the factory in 1994 and completed in August. On My data plate I stamped a manufacture date of May 2000, the date I completed building it and a maximum gross weight of 1050 due to my 503 Rotax engine.

[t j]

In the US we must notify our FSDO of major alterations and they give us new operating limitations and a short...usually...5 hour test flight period. If I were to install a 582 or 912 I would include the increase in maximum gross weight to 1200 in a letter to the FSDO.

You might check to see if you can/must do the same in Canada.

[Northof49]

Norm
My model IV 1200 serial # is C96040154. Its stamped on the airframe in the tail section. And on the data plate which is still in the original parts bag from sky star Kitfox . labeled , Data plate fuselage kit Classic 4.

[Norm]

In the US we must notify our FSDO of major alterations and they give us new operating limitations and a short...usually...5 hour test flight period. If I were to install a 582 or 912 I would include the increase in maximum gross weight to 1200 in a letter to the FSDO.

You might check to see if you can/must do the same in Canada.

Little different in Canada. No FSDO just TC but I may check and see what I can do. Interesting that my Fox was welded the month before yours. As I progress with the build I will post pictures for all to see.

[t j]

Ha, Norm I just noticed your kitfox and mine are sisters. C94070044 and C94080047.

[Norm]

Norm
My model IV 1200 serial # is C96040154. Its stamped on the airframe in the tail section. And on the data plate which is still in the original parts bag from sky star Kitfox . labeled , Data plate fuselage kit Classic 4.

What stage is your fox at. We should get together and compare notes.

[Norm]

Ha, Norm I just noticed your kitfox and mine are sisters. C94070044 and C94080047.

Maybe if things work out I can do the factory Flyin and reunite the sisters.
Norm

[grdev]

Is the bottom line, if you use the 582 engine or the 912,on your Model 4, your GW increases?

[t j]

Is the bottom line, if you use the 582 engine or the 912,on your Model 4, your GW increases?

On a Model IV 1200 or Classic IV, yes. On a Lite squared, yes. On a Model IV 1050, no. On an XL, unknown. Some XLs have a Model III fuselage, according to some owners.

Explained better here http://kitfoxaircraft.com/Model%20IV.htm

[t j]

I think one thing that confuses people about the maximum gross weight of the model 4s is this statement in the history link in my last post.

One of the most successful kits on the market today, the Classic 4 kit has been sold continuously since late 1991.Actually when the Serries V was introduced in 1994 the Model IV 1200 was discontinued. The Serries V was a new bigger design. The Model IV had been very successful and the factory was still getting requests for them.

So, they reintroduced the Model IV 1200 as the Classic IV. At least that is what the old Skystar salesman told me when I visited the factory in May of 1994 to see if I could get a demo flight in an XL.

I had read an article in a magazine about the new Kitfox XL and wanted one. When I got to the factory they told me the XL was no longer being produced and they had shipped their demo XL to France.

That is when the salesman told me the XL was the same as the Classic IV and they would sell me a complete Classic IV kit with a 503 for the same price as the XL.

So there you have it. Confused yet?:)