Landing on the beach

[akarmy]

Here's what you do when you have a free day in Seattle. Head out to the coast and land on the state's beach runway. Yes it's really a state airport, only distinguishing feature is a sign that says this is Coapalis state airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copalis_State_Airport). You just make sure the tide is going out instead of in, overfly to look for beach walkers, and head for the sand. What fun!

http://flying.karmy.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/20100306-P1010202-2.jpg

[Dick B in KY]

Looks like a great way to spend the day. Much different than what we have here in Kentucky. Nice pic.

Dick B

[87kitfox1]

what beautiful weather. nothing better.

[Mark]

Nice area Andy. I used to fly into Ocean Shores and Westport alot. Never made it into Copalis tho. Guess we're going to have to come back up there sometime.

[Rodney]

Beautiful airplane and great pictures.

Question - Could you have landed there with a nose-gear airplane?

Thanks
Rodney Wren

[SkyPirate]

Awesome Andy ,..looking at your tracks in front of your feet ,..your getting pretty good at running around with the tail up
one of the great things about landing on the beach which I'm sure you'll figure out quick ,,the wind is always clean no matter how fast it's blowing off the water.
If the wind is blowing striaght off the water towards land ,..sometimes if you can find the thermal line and get into it ,..pull back a little power nose her up slightly and just hang right there with no or very little forward ground speed,...bank her left slightly ..then back to the right feeling for the edge of the thermal,..now that's flying with the birds

[SkyPirate]

Rodney,..from the looks of the surface ,..I would land on that beach with a nose wheel ,..but ,.not all beaches have the compacted sand,.a tell tale sign is foot prints ..if they are shallow or barely visible..the surface is harder,..it they are deep prints or look like little pockets in the sand ,.the sand is loose and could possible swallow a nose wheel. and although it may look flat,..not all beaches are,..like Andy had mentioned about looking for beach walkers ,..I'm sure he was also looking for a flat spot,..it's good practice tail wheel or tri gear to always over fly the area you plan on touching down look for drift wood,..walkers,..swirls in the sand is proof of an eddy when the tide was going out which could mean a low spot on the beach. a line in the sand going from the land towards the water that looks wet,..shiny,..these area's can swallow the main gear on a tail dragger let alone a nose wheel on a tricycle,..
any surface that is generally all the same color can hide a hazard,..especially when the sun is at it's apex or near it,.casting no shadows, or no shadow conditions such as over cast etc.
Not trying to detour anyone from landing on a beach,..just a heads up

[cap01]

rodney , ive done a lot of flying around northeastern oklahoma and hadnt seen very may beaches i would land on there

[Rodney]

CAP01

I live in Ft Towson, in southeastern OK - and we have miles and miles of
the Red River which has some very large sandbars. I think??? they may be too soft for a nose gear airplane. I've never tried to land on one, but you can see the tracks of four-wheelers and the sand does appear to be somewhat soft.

When the weather gets a little warmer, I plan on taking my four-wheeler down to some of these sand bars and do a little looking around.

At certain times of the year, there are stripers that come up the Red River until they get to the Texhoma Lake dam - it would be a lot of fun and great fishing to be able to land on a sandbar - no one else around etc.

[SkyPirate]

That's cool Rodney ,..just went over the red river 2 days ago coming back from Dallas,..I'm looking for some land not far from OK TX Border,..near Sherman Texas,.so I'll be flying the red river too

[cap01]

i guess i didnt think of the sand bars . im up for trying the beach landing the next time i get out to the ocean but im still not sure if i want to scare the crap out of myself with a sandbar landing . have to work up to that
thanks

[Rodney]

Cap01

There are several sandbars I've seen on the river that are easily 1500 ft long, with clear approaches on both ends, but it's not anything like the beautiful beaches you guys have up there in Washington.

We'd have to go down to Galveston or some place like that to play on the beeches. Now that would be a fun trip.

I just got the CD building manual in from Kitfox last night and one of the things I want to find out about is the ability to change from a tri-gear to a conventional gear - seems to me I've read somewhere that it is possible to switch back and forth. That may be more trouble than it's worth, but I want to determine how it's done and how much work it would be.

I guess what we are saying is that we a jealous that you guys have such a fun place to play - wish we had your sandbox -

[cap01]

the airplane in the picture on the beach was origionally a tri gear and andy changed it over to a tail dragger soon after he acquired it . andy is the one with all the poop on converting .
i should make a trip to souteastern oklahoma , ive got a few relatives buried along the red river from the War of Northern Agression

[Rodney]

Well - keep your confederate dollars man - the SOUTH may yet have to rise again. If Texas secedes from the Union - I may have to move

If you get down this way - you have a place to stay - just give me a call.

[SkyPirate]

ha ha I see I'm not the only one thinking this way hence why I'm looking at property in Texas

[SkyPirate]

As for changing the gear from tail dragger to nose wheel ,..it would depend on the type of flying/landing you plan on doing the majority of the time,..nothing against nose wheels,..but you "can" land a tail dragger anywhere that you can land a nose wheel ,..but you "cannot" land a nose wheel anywhere you that you can land a tail dragger .
I've tried ..and been pulled out of a muddy field more then once with a nose wheel plane because the front tire sank into the abyss,..luckily never once have I flipped the plane doing this or had a prop strike ..knocking on wood

my personal feelings about the diferences,.The only advantage a nose wheel gives you aside from taxiing visibility,. is possibly better control on the ground in a cross wind ,..but this is so on heavier planes,..not so much on lighter planes

Chase

[cap01]

rodney , thanks for the offer . i do make several trips a year to oklahoma , my mother is still alive ,93 , in vinita , ok . so i visit her and i have kin in vinita and fairland , ok . sadly i dont fly the kitfox down , but may sometime . there were several relatives that rode with the cherokee mounted rifles so they must have spent some time down in your neck of the woods at one time or another .
just cause i live on the left coast dont mean i agree with them out here . although the country is beautiful and when the weather is good the flying is great . mountain flying is a whole nother kind of flying ,may not be for everyone .

[Rodney]

That's my problem Skypirate - about 1/2 the time I want a taildragger and the other 1/2 I want a tri-gear

Maybe two kitfoxes

I'd like to teach my wife to fly - or at least be able to land the airplane - and that would be so much easier in the tri-gear - but for playing around in the sand - we need the taildragger.

And then like Cap01 said - I've always wanted to make a trip up to Idaho (and the whole northwest) and fly into some of those mountain strips. When I ordered my CD assembly manual - Debra told me that most of those strips can be used by a tri-gear airplane - in fact the videos and pictures you see on the internet usually have lots of cessnas and the occasional cherokee on those strips.

I'm sure I'll start with the tri-gear, but at some point - after I get comfortable with the airplane and the hours flown off - it may get converted to a taildragger. Don't you just love the fact that with an experimental airplane we can do what we want. So nice to have the freedom to work on your airplane.

RW

[SkyPirate]

Sounds like the plan for a kitfox has been on your plate for a while Rodney,..good for you that your at the stage your at to get a kitfox,..
with another accident with a zenith CH701 (2nd one in 3 months in Eldon MO),..topic is that FAA needs to be more stiff with experimental aircraft inspections and may require home builders to be certified soon.
I need to get my plane done before that come's into effect.
seems the Zeniths are having troubles with their models 601's and 701's. and the response is that all experimental aircraft are in question concerning the investigation of this most recent accident.
Kitfox has one of if not the best safety records in the experimental class, I don't think it's too fair that the whole experimental class is being judged because of one manufacturer's design.

Chase

[Rodney]

http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?id=433875

I saw that report too - heaven forbid that the FAA get anymore involved with experimental aviation than they all ready are. Just check the NTSB records and see how many certified airplanes crash everyday.

Everyone of us wants to be as safe as possible, but the reason I'm selling a certified airplane and going to the Kitfox is so I can put state of the art avionics in the Kitfox or add an electric wire to power up a GPS system or put in a new lightbulb in cabin.

I love my little C150 - but ya can't do anything to it. Besides - the Kitfox has a wider fuselage and so much better performance.

AND ITS GOT A STICK - no more control wheel.

My dad flew P-51's in the war and I've always wanted an airplane with
a real stick - don't laugh - this is as close as I'll ever get to a P-51.

Actually - if I ever get three grand I don't need - there is an outfit in Florida called Stallion 51 - you can get an hour in a P-51 for about 3 grand. Would that be fun???

I've been looking for the past two years trying to decide what to do and I just keep coming back to the Kitfox as the best solution for me. - and I like the SS7 best of all the models available. I talked to PaulZ who just bought the first SLSA - he lives just south of me in McKinney Tx, and he just raved about how much better a Kitfox handles than a 150. He said it's just a delight to fly. I'm going to try to go down and see him later this summer (if summer ever gets here).

I bought 40 acres of land and I can put a 1200 ft strip on it. The Kitfox should easily be able to operate from 1200 ft - and I can keep the plane at home in my own shop. I like hanging at the airport as much as anyone, but I can buy a lot of fuel for what a hanger costs.

I'm watching the new Dynon Skyview system. Maybe by next year it will be a more mature system with all their navigation and Nexrad features installed. I plan on doing some x-country flying when I retire and have the time. Lots of neat places to go. How about those beautiful beaches in Washington??? Would LOVE to get a caravan of Kitfoxes and head to Alaska.

I plan on ordering my 7 - probably after the first part of next year. Still building the house and a 40x60ft shop - for some reason, my wife made me promise to finish the house before I can get started on a new airplane.
Can't believe she's so narrow minded :)- but she knows if I get an airplane in the shop - the house will never get done.

For now - will continue to study the manual and get ready to start building.

Regards
RW

[Paul Z]

Rodney,

Here are some pictures of how the Tri-Gear landing gear attaches. That should clear up you question concerning how the fron mounting points work.

[Rodney]

Paul - thanks for the pictures - good to hear from you.

Enjoy all the snow last weekend???? We got about 6-8 inches up here - an now it's all gone. Suppose to rain a little tonight -

I've still got to get the cowl painted on my 150 and get back into the air.
Too much humidity to paint though.

Have you had a chance to get any more hours in - between snow storms and rain storms??? What I wouldn't give for two weeks of "regular" weather.

One thing more Paul - I keep a really nice picture of 103KA as the background on my computer so I can keep motivated. You have a gorgous airplane.

Rodney

[SkyPirate]

yes the west coast beaches are awesome ..last time i was on the west coast was ...1965? I've flown all over the east coast top to bottom landed on ocean beaches from Cape Cod to florida ,..lakes and river beaches too ..some float flying. and west as far as Texas.
I've been renting a 150 lately,..I land it like a tail dragger ha ha ,.don't set the nose wheel down till I'm ready to stop.
sounds like we are in the same boat ,..I'm building a 10,000 sq.ft house, almost done,...I've got 1 shop 24'x24' with 26'x28' storage attached ,..building another 30'x30' shop now,..started last winter/fall and I've got an airplane in my downstairs shop with a good start on it ..my own design.
Wife says same thing finish the house first ,..so I compromised ..didn't buy a kit,..just building my own concept
I retired at age 36,.a decade or 2 ago,..DAV, so got the time ,,sometimes I don't have the mobility ,..but I make the best of it
I've owned one kitfox,..love it ..went to texas this past week to look at a model 4,..I'll own another kitfox before too long. just gota catch up with the projects going on now

[Rodney]

Did you go look at that red and yellow one that's advertised in the Classified section of the forum??

I keep seeing really nice Kitfox IV's out there and I'm really tempted to get one. In fact I've thought of getting one to fly while I build the 7 - and then sell the IV. My problem is that I'd probably get attached to it and want to keep it.

Later
Rodney

[Rodney]

Gotta leave work - call me at 580-513-8153 if you get a chance and tell me about it.

It looked pretty well built.

Rodney

[akarmy]

The day I landed out there on the beach, there was a tri-gear 172 & 182 on the same beach. So yes, if the tide is on it's way out and leaves you some hard sand you can use a tri-gear too!

I never had the nerve to try my tri-gear RV on the beach, but it really is hard sand out there so I doubt it would cause much problem.

What was interesting was the slope of the "runway" I'm not used to landing on a 15deg slope across the runway! As you flare, the up hill wheel touches first and then you kind of bank over while slowing. Just something new to get used to.

[Rodney]

Akarmy - since you have made the transition from tri-gear to conventional - how much time is involved in the conversion? And - if one wanted to go back to a tri-gear - is it possible?

Thanks
Rodney Wren

[cap01]

andy , what about brake lines ? do you have to bleed the brakes when you switch ?

[SkyPirate]

Andy ,.I had to land once dead stick in a corn field in Vermont that was about 25 degree's down to my right,.and 20 degree's up soft and full of cut cornstalks,..I lined the mains up between the rows and at the last second I leveled the wing to the ground , touched down with a little right rudder so the plane would head up hill, stick in my lap and light brakes,..the reason why I leveled the wing to the ground is if I was going to bounce ( luckily I didn't) I wanted both wheels parallel to the ground,..with out power, touching one wheel down first especially in soft ground, it would have opened the door for a ground loop. just before I stopped I kicked the tail right more so the wings were as level as I could get them and the tail was pointed down hill.
I'm glad that I had practiced dead stick landings on a regular basis

[akarmy]

So it took me about a day to do the conversion from tri-gear to tail dragger. I think you could shorten up the time once you had done it once. It's fairly easy to do. You pull the cowl, suspend the plane from the engine mount using an engine hoist. Once the main gear is off the ground, you pull the bolts and brake line fittings from the top. Then move it forward to the other mounting location and rebolt in place. I had to punch new holes in the fabric for the brake lines in the new location and yes had to bleed the brakes. Then remove the nosegear, bolt on the tailwheel, hookup the chains and you are about done. In my case I swapped out the tires for larger ones, but that's not strictly necessary.

I think if you wanted / needed to change it more frequently the only real pain is having to move the brake lines and bleed the brakes each time. Not sure how you could eliminate that step. Maybe someone has thought of an idea for that...

[SkyPirate]

I know it would add more line's/ minimal weight which would also give more area for fluid etc,..but if a valve was set at both locations with a T in the brake line from master to "T" then forward and rear mounting location ..it would eliminate the need to remove and replace the lines each time the gear was transformed,if transforming was going to be a common practice.install a plug in the "not used " line end,.. and remember to open or close the appropriate valve ,.with the grove gear and gun drilled set up this would be an easy set up.

[Rodney]

Skypirate - that's a good idea - wouldn't take much to set that up - especially during initial construction.

I've also been thinking about making a special axle for the front gear that would allow you to mount two tires, each outboard of the gear forks. That would give the front gear a lot more tire area on the ground, and perhaps prevent the front gear from digging in. There are also tires out there that are "flatter" than the normal aviation tire - and they would also increase the footprint or area of the tire on the ground.

Just a thought.

Rodney

[SkyPirate]

Rodney ,..on a caster front wheel ,..different tire shapes then recommended can cause a wobble problem ,..if you put 2 tires on a caster system that might also give you more of a problem on other then asphalt surfaces. I'm not familiar with the caster used on the kitfox trigear ,..some systems have a dampening system ,.some are just caster,..nothing to dampen a wobble in them .

Chase

[Rodney]

Your right - it would definately require some testing.

I don't know if it would work or not - just a idea - probably should have kept it to myself for now.

When I get my Kitfox - I'll probably look into it for soft field work.

Rodney

[SkyPirate]

nothing wrong with thinking out loud ,..I am guilty of that all the time Rodney

[Dorsal]

FWIW The 7 does have a damper system on the caster

[SkyPirate]

thanks Doral ,.added to my archive any flying time yet on your new beautiful gorgous ( no envy in this question ha ha ) plane ?

[Dorsal]

Not flying yet, just got a tech inspection yesterday, passed with flying colors . Hope to get the AW inspection in a month or two (by the same fellow who did the tech inspection which is handy). Have a hangar waiting for me at KORH, should be good.