no electrical system

[896tr]

Question, if you have no electrical system in your plane is ADS-B still required?

[PapuaPilot]

Short answer is no, but you cannot fly your plane anywhere that a transponder is required.

[Redline]

What Phil said.

Here's a good article that explains the Mode C veil, but also discusses ADS-B requirements: https://www.angleofattack.com/mode-c-veil/

[alexM]

Short answer is no, but you cannot fly your plane anywhere that a transponder is required.

So...without ADS-B "out" you can fly:

Most of Alaska, Washington, Idaho, Oregon, Montana, Nevada, Utah, Northern CA, etc.

Not at all difficult to navigate across the entire US and not need ADS-B.

[avidflyer]

I just copied this statement from the article that was shown in a previous post. Looks like the exception is if you don't have the certified electrical system.
Mode C Transponder Required AirspaceAgain, Mode C required airspace includes Classes A, B, C, 10,000 MSL or above, and within 30 NM of a Class B airport. There is an exception to the Class B Mode C requirements for the small class of “gliders, balloons, and aircraft without a certified engine-driven electrical system (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.215).”

Here is a link to an EAA article dealing with this in more detail.
No Radio No Transponder Operations in Class D Airspace in a Mode C Veil (eaa.org) (https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-building/builderresources/next-steps-after-your-airplane-is-built/operating-articles/general-operation/no-radio-no-transponder-operations#:~:text=There%20are%20two%20exceptions% 20to%20the%20Mode%20C,transponder%20installed%2C%2 0or%20who%27s%20transponder%20is%20not%20functioni ng.)


PS, (my own question) is my alternator on my 912 Rotax considered a certified engine-driven electrical system? If you look at sectional maps, most of the US is not under a mode C veil as I see it. Other than the above 10,000' MSL requirement.

[PapuaPilot]

I just copied this statement from the article that was shown in a previous post. Looks like the exception is if you don't have the certified electrical system.
Mode C Transponder Required Airspace

Again, Mode C required airspace includes Classes A, B, C, 10,000 MSL or above, and within 30 NM of a Class B airport. There is an exception to the Class B Mode C requirements for the small class of “gliders, balloons, and aircraft without a certified engine-driven electrical system (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.215).”

Here is a link to an EAA article dealing with this in more detail.
No Radio No Transponder Operations in Class D Airspace in a Mode C Veil (eaa.org) (https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-building/builderresources/next-steps-after-your-airplane-is-built/operating-articles/general-operation/no-radio-no-transponder-operations#:~:text=There%20are%20two%20exceptions% 20to%20the%20Mode%20C,transponder%20installed%2C%2 0or%20who%27s%20transponder%20is%20not%20functioni ng.)


PS, (my own question) is my alternator on my 912 Rotax considered a certified engine-driven electrical system? If you look at sectional maps, most of the US is not under a mode C veil as I see it. Other than the above 10,000' MSL requirement.

Umm, several things here are incorrect . . .

About the word "certified" you used, read the regs carefully again. It actually says "certificated". This is talking about aircraft having an engine-driven electrical system when the aircraft was certificated, or if the aircraft gets an engine driven charging system at a later date. It has nothing to do with your type alternator.

CFR 91.215 (current) says, "Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.215#b_2) of this section, any aircraft (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=8e9caab04f792d93d0738c9d3290164e&term_occur=999&term_src=Title:14:Chapter:I:Subchapter:F:Part:91:S ubpart:C:91.215) which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed . . . "
- "Certificated" here refers to the moment the aircraft receives its Special Airworthiness Certificate. If your plane has any type of engine driven charging system you need to have a transponder or stay out of the aforementioned airspace.
- "Subsequently been certified with such a system" refers to an engine driven charging system that is installed at a later date. Same rules apply for transponders.
- The word "certified" hererefers to the logbook entry and/or FAA Form 337 that the A&P/IA signs the paperwork for that installation. It's not just for A&Ps that use the word certify, anytime we sign a condition inspection the aircraft's Operating Limitations tell us to use the wording "I certify that this aircraft has been inspected . . . " Your signature and certificate number makes it legally binding.

I can't find a date on the EAA article, but it is outdated information. One clue is there is no mention of ADSB. It looks like the article was from the late 1990s because the sidebar shows "recent articles" from 1993-1996.

Obviously it's best to reference current FARs and articles. ADSB was mandated in Jan. 2020. Any information published before that time isn't valid for the discussion.