Anyone using the Supereco autopilot

[avidflyer]

Guess the title of the post tells it all. Any comments? Thanks, JImChuk

The Lightest Autopilot for Light-Sport & Experimental Aircraft – aircraftautomation (https://www.aircraftautomation.com/products/supereco-autopilot)

[efwd]

Garmin AP head and two servos cost $300 more?

[109JB]

Garmin AP head and two servos cost $300 more?

But you need a G5 minimum to run the AP on a garmin system. Minimum required is:

G5X - $1500
2 GSA28 servos - $900 each
GMC507 AP controller - $1200

Total: $4500 (The above prices include connectors but no wiring)

[Eric Page]

The SuperECO system might difficult to use on a Kitfox since it uses aileron-mounted trim tabs, and our flaperons are both delicate and physically separated from the wing. Maybe one of them could be installed on the lower wing surface instead, but it looks like a sketchy proposition on a fabric covered airplane. If it were installed on the wing, how would it affect the flaperon? Would you be able to let go of the stick?

Then there's the flutter/balance problem. From their website: "To avoid flutter, you must rebalance your aileron, elevator, and rudder after installing your trim tabs."

On the positive side of the ledger, its yaw damper automatically maintains coordinated flight when engaged and works as a manually adjustable rudder trim when disengaged. That would be pretty useful on any taildragger.

[avidflyer]

I was talking to the owner of the company yesterday, and he said that some one with a Kitfox was just installing one and might be flying it this weekend. He said he would let me know how it worked out. I asked him about installing tabs on the wings, just outboard of the flaperons instead of on the flaperons. On the full length wings, there is about 18" of bare wing there. I sent him pictures of my Kitfox, and may have got him thinking. Even if one put a tab on both wings, would it give enough push up and down? I'm not sure. It would make it easy to run wires through the rear spar. JImChuk

[kitfoxjim]

The SuperECO system might difficult to use on a Kitfox since it uses aileron-mounted trim tabs, and our flaperons are both delicate and physically separated from the wing. Maybe one of them could be installed on the lower wing surface instead, but it looks like a sketchy proposition on a fabric covered airplane. If it were installed on the wing, how would it affect the flaperon? Would you be able to let go of the stick?

Then there's the flutter/balance problem. From their website: "To avoid flutter, you must rebalance your aileron, elevator, and rudder after installing your trim tabs."

On the positive side of the ledger, its yaw damper automatically maintains coordinated flight when engaged and works as a manually adjustable rudder trim when disengaged. That would be pretty useful on any taildragger.

Several years ago I developed my own autopilot system using R/C servos. My system was based on technology available in the mid 90's. It uses track deviation to control direction and GPS altitude for pitch. I have approximately 1700 hours using these servos with only one failure in that time. I have both a Model 2 and Model 5 Kitfox, with 3 axis autopilot and trim. My system works great but is slow to react in turbulence. I have attached photos of my flaperon installation. I use one on each aileron with no flutter problems, tested to in excess of vne.
3144131440

[Eric Page]

Wow, very cool, Jim. I'm glad to be proven wrong by ingenuity that clever!

[avidflyer]

Thanks for the response with the home built autopilot. What I had in mind was maybe a tab on each wing just past the flaperon, perhaps 2" or 3" wide and about 18" long. That would have taken care of any issues of dealing with the flaperon, and would have been real easy to run the wires to the servo. Then the question comes up, is the servo strong enough to move that much tab, the one on the supereco ap is only about 2" x maybe 12" long. Then if one goes with a stronger servo, does the sepereco supply enough power to operate it? Lots of questions for sure. Another question I would have is can you make up another autopilot like you have on your kitfoxes :-) ? It's all very interesting, even if just for something to get the brain working. And sometimes, that's how great ideas come about as well. JImChuk

[kitfoxjim]

Hi Jim:
I see perhaps 2 problems with what you propose, the first would be the integrity of the trailing edge to support the tab load. Second, attached to the wing itself the servo would be under continuous load which would decrease expected servo life. Mounted on the flaperon I don't think there is the same continuous load as the control surface becomes aerodynamically balanced. No question in my mind that there are R/C servos equal to the load but the Supereco supply might not support that continuous load. I have been in contact with Supereco and will likely upgrade to their system. Wiring to the servo on the flaperon can be accomplished by taping the servo wires to the trailing edge or bottom of the lift strut.

[avidflyer]

Thanks for the replies Jim. Nice to get other opinions to balance one's own. As far as the trailing edge of the wing supporting the trim tab, I was thinking of a bearing on the last flaperon hangar, and a bracket that would fasten to the outboard rib for the other end of the trim tab. Thought about using ball bearings such as are used on router bits. They can be found with 1/2" or 3/8" OD, and 1/4" or 3/16" ID. And they should last forever. I watched Cory Robin's video about using the Supereco AP and it seemed like the tab was constantly in motion. I wondered how long the piano hinge would last. Maybe that wasn't that big of a concern, but it was one of my first reactions. JImChuk

[JP24]

I am pilot of EuroFox, Ultralight which one can consider as being asmall or large brother of KitFox. (AvidFlyert, AppoloFox),practically identical, both in its construction quality and its flight qualities.


https://photos.app.goo.gl/aMuSmvz2TUjqWznL6


Since October lastyear I installed the SuperEco in my EuroFox. After looking on Facebook for a certain number of comments on the use of such a solution on ULMs with Flaperons, I decided to put trim taps on the two Flaperons (Roll) and a trim tap for the Pitch. Thus I obtain a symmetry between the two Flaperons, especially when the flaps are used.


On the flaperons,the trim taps are of medium size (20 cm by 4 cm), which represents a little more than half of the surface recommended by Aircraft Automation. For the Pitch I made a trim tap of 30 cm by by 5 cm).
After assembling the servo motors fixed on the Flateron, I decided to put the servo motor inside the Flaperons in order to reduce drag and weight. The influence of trim tabs on Flaterons is positive. A flight test measures this influence, and the resulting pressure on the stick when they are in various positions. The SuperEco parameters allow this test to be carried out in flight.
So far I haven't had a flutter/balance problem.


https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ep37ABMirzY9pxfh7


I also watched theCory Robin's video about using the Supereco AP. I did not observe that the tabs was constantly in motion. Maybe, this may be due to an unstable atmosphere.


The adjustment of the whole is not very simple. A set of parameters in the SuperEco make it possible to adjust the reactions of the ULM to changes in altitude or direction. After several tries I am still not 100%satisfied, despite the help from the boss of Aircraft Automation(Carlos).


I will, when the weather will be better, continue my tests and adjustments of the SuperEco.


Note: please excuse my English.


Jean-Pierre

[JP24]

Several years ago I developed my own autopilot system using R/C servos. My system was based on technology available in the mid 90's. It uses track deviation to control direction and GPS altitude for pitch. I have approximately 1700 hours using these servos with only one failure in that time. I have both a Model 2 and Model 5 Kitfox, with 3 axis autopilot and trim. My system works great but is slow to react in turbulence. I have attached photos of my flaperon installation. I use one on each aileron with no flutter problems, tested to in excess of vne.
3144131440
Hi Jim.

Could you please give me the dimensions of yours trims.

Best Regards
Jean-Pierre

[kitfoxjim]

Jean-Pierre

Sorry I did not reply sooner as I am travelling on holidays. The dimension my tabs are about 10 x 18 -20 cm. You don't mention what problems you are having with the autopilot....the earlier Kitfox's had adverse yaw which made aileron only steering difficult for the autopilot. If your problem is related to adverse yaw, please advise as I may have a solution for you. If not, you need to describe the characteristics you are trying to correct.

Jim



I am pilot of EuroFox, Ultralight which one can consider as being asmall or large brother of KitFox. (AvidFlyert, AppoloFox),practically identical, both in its construction quality and its flight qualities.


https://photos.app.goo.gl/aMuSmvz2TUjqWznL6


Since October lastyear I installed the SuperEco in my EuroFox. After looking on Facebook for a certain number of comments on the use of such a solution on ULMs with Flaperons, I decided to put trim taps on the two Flaperons (Roll) and a trim tap for the Pitch. Thus I obtain a symmetry between the two Flaperons, especially when the flaps are used.


On the flaperons,the trim taps are of medium size (20 cm by 4 cm), which represents a little more than half of the surface recommended by Aircraft Automation. For the Pitch I made a trim tap of 30 cm by by 5 cm).
After assembling the servo motors fixed on the Flateron, I decided to put the servo motor inside the Flaperons in order to reduce drag and weight. The influence of trim tabs on Flaterons is positive. A flight test measures this influence, and the resulting pressure on the stick when they are in various positions. The SuperEco parameters allow this test to be carried out in flight.
So far I haven't had a flutter/balance problem.


https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ep37ABMirzY9pxfh7


I also watched theCory Robin's video about using the Supereco AP. I did not observe that the tabs was constantly in motion. Maybe, this may be due to an unstable atmosphere.


The adjustment of the whole is not very simple. A set of parameters in the SuperEco make it possible to adjust the reactions of the ULM to changes in altitude or direction. After several tries I am still not 100%satisfied, despite the help from the boss of Aircraft Automation(Carlos).


I will, when the weather will be better, continue my tests and adjustments of the SuperEco.


Note: please excuse my English.


Jean-Pierre

[JP24]

Hi Jim.

Like all ultralights of this type (avifFlyer, AppoloFox, KitFox) the Eurofox does not escape the problems of reverse yaws.
My problem with the SuperEco is that the system has trouble keeping direction. This results in weak oscillations, which tend to increase.
I notice that your tabs are two to three times higher than mine. Changing my tabs is no problem.
On the other hand, if you have a solution concerning the reverse yaw, I'm really interested!

Jean-Pierre

[kitfoxjim]

Jean-Pierre

To get a coordinated turn the earlier kitfox (pre model 5)you definitely need some rudder input. You will need to add a trim tab with servo on the rudder, and use the aileron signal to generate a proportional signal on the rudder. Unfortunately, this will take some experimentation with trim tab size, and servo arm length until you get a coordinated turn. Did you get the yaw damper option with your autopilot which may render above comments invalid. if this is the case, you will need to work on lessening drag on the rudder cables to give the yaw damper a chance to work.

Jim

Hi JimLike all ultralights of this type (avifFlyer, AppoloFox, KitFox) the Eurofox does not escape the problems of reverse yaws.My problem with the SuperEco is that the system has trouble keeping direction. This results in weak oscillations, which tend to increase.I notice that your tabs are two to three times higher than mine. Changing my tabs is no problem.On the other hand, if you have a solution concerning the reverse yaw, I'm really interested!Jean-Pierre[/QUOTE]

[avidflyer]

I texted Carlos a couple of weeks ago to get an update on how the Supereco is working on the Kitfox in Florida that he told me about. So far, I haven't heard back from him. JImChuk

PS I'm sure all the extra features on the supereco are nice, but I think I would be fine with something that would just keep the plane on the same heading and altitude that it's at when I push the "engage" button.

[JP24]

Hi Jim.
If I understand correctly, you recommend, in order to obtain satisfactory results, the installation of the yaw damper option. SuperSco options that I don't have on my EuroFox.
Other than that, I'm thinking of increasing the size of my trim tabs, as they are half the size of yours.
Thanks again for your support.

[kitfoxjim]

You can add a rudder trim tab servo to your system by adding a Y connector to the aileron servo output of the ecoautopilot. My model 2 had a lot of mechanical drag as the cables run through tubing. This was overcome by disconnecting the rudder return springs and using a large rudder trim tab. I will try to attach a photo. It took a lot of experimentation to get the right combination for a coordinated turn. I did it with software adjustments in my original autopilot but I am sure this can be done with mechanical adjustments. Carlos is sending me a unit with the yaw damper and I will post the results. These comments are based on my own autopilot development which started in the mid 90’s.

Jim
If I understand correctly, you recommend, in order to obtain satisfactory results, the installation of the yaw damper option. SuperSco options that I don't have on my EuroFox.
Other than that, I'm thinking of increasing the size of my trim tabs, as they are half the size of yours.
Thanks again for your support.[/QUOTE]

[JP24]

Jim,
I already have on each flaperon a trim tab which required a Y-cord as well as a small module allowing to reverse the direction of one of the two servo motors. Module provided by Carlos.
I just asked Carlos how to activate the reverse yaw correction option on my SuperEco.
I look forward to your test results.
Regards.
Jean-Pierre