Kitfox Registration

[Birdseyeview]

I'm a licensed Light Sport Pilot and I plan to certify my Kitfox 6 as an LSA so I can legally fly it. I'm close to sending in my registration paperwork, including the following forms:

8050-1 Aircraft Registration Application
8050-2 Kit Bill of Sale, along with a conveyance description of previous kit owners and their 8050-2 forms
8050-88 Affidavit of Ownership (notarized)

None of these registration forms say anything about LSA and I'm assuming that gets addressed later when I submit the 8130-6 Application for Airworthiness Certificate. I bought and studied the EAA's Amateur Built Certification Kit documents describing the whole registration and certification process but I'm still confused on a couple of terminology points. I'm hoping answers to my following questions will eliminate the confusion I'm all wrapped up in.

1) Is EAB just an umbrella term for any homebuilt including an LSA?
2) Is there a gross weight limit on an EAB?
3) I know the kitfox 6 was designed with a 1550 lb gross weight limit. If I was to certify it to that limit what would it be called? and could I still fly it as a Light Sport Pilot with some limitation on gross weight?
4) What then is an ELSA and is that the designation that I should certify to that has a 1320 lb gross weight limit?

It's probably not as complicated as I've get it in my head to be but can someone please help straighten me out? Thanks

[109JB]

As a sport pilot you can fly any airplane that fits the definition of a LSA. it really doesn't matter if it is a LSA, Experimental, normal category, etc. All that matters is that it fits the definition.

Edit: IMO it is best to simply certify the airplane as an amateur-built. For a Kitfox the only thing that would disqualify it from LSA is the gross weight. When you have your paperwork ready for the DAR, make sure it shows 1320 max gross, although I don't believe this will go to Oklahoma City. Also once flying in phase one don't put it in the logs that it has a gross over 1320, and you are fine. This way, if you ever get your private, or you ever sell it, the gross can be increased by simply re-entering phase 1 and testing it at higher weights.

[Denalifox]

I'm a licensed Light Sport Pilot and I plan to certify my Kitfox 6 as an LSA so I can legally fly it. I'm close to sending in my registration paperwork, including the following forms:

8050-1 Aircraft Registration Application
8050-2 Kit Bill of Sale, along with a conveyance description of previous kit owners and their 8050-2 forms
8050-88 Affidavit of Ownership (notarized)

None of these registration forms say anything about LSA and I'm assuming that gets addressed later when I submit the 8130-6 Application for Airworthiness Certificate. I bought and studied the EAA's Amateur Built Certification Kit documents describing the whole registration and certification process but I'm still confused on a couple of terminology points. I'm hoping answers to my following questions will eliminate the confusion I'm all wrapped up in.

1) Is EAB just an umbrella term for any homebuilt including an LSA?
2) Is there a gross weight limit on an EAB?
3) I know the kitfox 6 was designed with a 1550 lb gross weight limit. If I was to certify it to that limit what would it be called? and could I still fly it as a Light Sport Pilot with some limitation on gross weight?
4) What then is an ELSA and is that the designation that I should certify to that has a 1320 lb gross weight limit?

It's probably not as complicated as I've get it in my head to be but can someone please help straighten me out? Thanks

I just registered mine, turn around is about 3 days if you get it correct the first time. Very surprised honestly.

[efwd]

(14) Light Sport Aircraft, Experimental Aircraft, EAB, LSA, ELSA - Explained. - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCi-xy8nyrY)

Long story short, if your building a custom airplane of your own design (meaning you are not just building a replica of the manufacturers SLSA as Kitfox offers) You are building a EAB. Keep it under 1320 lbs and you are legal to fly it as a Sport Pilot. Obviously that is not the only restriction. Watch the first 7 min of this video and you will understand.

[bumsteer]

Am I correct in my understanding that this is all done online now? or do you still send in the paperwork? Watched an EAA webinar and got the impression it was done online on a new registration portal. I did set up an account there.

Rick

[Denalifox]

Registration is still via paperwork with ink signature and notary. AWC is all online now. Once registered your info and N number populate under your account. Pretty slick.

[bumsteer]

Thanks for clarification. Had a senior moment and got registering and AWC mixed up.

Rick

[Birdseyeview]

Eddie and others, Thanks for your info. The video you pointed out, along with the other comments, was all very helpful.

[Eric Page]

1) Is EAB just an umbrella term for any homebuilt including an LSA?
2) Is there a gross weight limit on an EAB?
3) I know the kitfox 6 was designed with a 1550 lb gross weight limit. If I was to certify it to that limit what would it be called? and could I still fly it as a Light Sport Pilot with some limitation on gross weight?
4) What then is an ELSA and is that the designation that I should certify to that has a 1320 lb gross weight limit?
1. Yes, E-AB covers virtually all homebuilts, including any that meet the LSA definition.

2. No, but anything over 12,500# MGTOW would require a type rating for the pilot. I've never heard of this happening. Anyone else?

3. It would be called an Experimental-Amateur Built. If it's certified at 1,550#, it would not meet the LSA definition and couldn't be flown by a Sport Pilot. If it's certified at 1,320# or less, and it meets the rest of the LSA definition, then a Sport Pilot could fly it.

4. A Special-Light Sport Aircraft (S-LSA) is a plane that's factory built, must be maintained as directed by the manufacturer and can't be modified without permission from the manufacturer. An Experimental-Light Sport Aircraft (E-LSA) is the kit version of an S-LSA and does not have the same maintenance and modification restrictions. The owner of an E-LSA can maintain and inspect the plane after taking a 16-hour Light Sport Repairman Inspection Course (https://rainbowaviation.com/?page_id=3997). I believe that an S-LSA can be converted to E-LSA, but don't quote me on it. Your Kitfox will be certified as an E-AB, and if you want to fly it as a Sport Pilot, set the MGTOW at 1,320#. As the builder, you can apply for the repairman certificate for your aircraft with no additional training required, which will allow you to sign logbook entries for the annual condition inspection.

If you follow 109JB's advice above, you'll be able to increase the MGTOW in the future if you upgrade your license or if the FAA increases the LSA weight limit, as is expected.

[Birdseyeview]

Eric,

Thanks - very informative

[109JB]

All good information but I disagree with one point.

EAB's are not "certified" at any weight. They receive an airworthiness certificate and operating limitations that are blank when received. The DAR/FAA will review weight and balance, but nothing with the airplane's weight is sent to Oklahoma City for the airplane's permanent record. The gross weight of a homebuilt is determined during the flight test phase and entered into the Operating Limitations and the aircraft records. These are not sent to OKC. YOU will determine the gross weight when conducting phase 1 flight testing.

Production airplanes have certified gross weights but they also have type certificates, which EAB's do not.

[Birdseyeview]

John, Wow - this is very interesting - so you're saying that the gross weight that I determine during the phase 1 testing will become the basis of my airplane's limitations only. As such and in my case, the gross weight will have nothing to do with the aircraft's design capabilities (1550 lbs) but instead will be limited by my light sport license limitation (1320 lbs). This strikes me as a little strange and now I know why I was confused by all this earlier, but who am I to question the authorities that came up with this rule. I can only hope that the future rule changes on light sport aircraft and the associated light sport pilot restrictions will allow for a higher gross weight so that I can take full advantage of the Kitfox's true design limit. I would also hope and assume that when that happens there will be a straight forward legal pathway for me to update my gross weight limitation. Thanks for opening my eyes to all this.

[efwd]

Larry, you and I both will be submitting Phase 1 paperwork to increase to the 1550#. It will be easy.

[Eric Page]

EAB's are not "certified" at any weight.
Excellent point; thanks for the correction!

[109JB]

John, Wow - this is very interesting - so you're saying that the gross weight that I determine during the phase 1 testing will become the basis of my airplane's limitations only. As such and in my case, the gross weight will have nothing to do with the aircraft's design capabilities (1550 lbs) but instead will be limited by my light sport license limitation (1320 lbs). This strikes me as a little strange and now I know why I was confused by all this earlier, but who am I to question the authorities that came up with this rule. I can only hope that the future rule changes on light sport aircraft and the associated light sport pilot restrictions will allow for a higher gross weight so that I can take full advantage of the Kitfox's true design limit. I would also hope and assume that when that happens there will be a straight forward legal pathway for me to update my gross weight limitation. Thanks for opening my eyes to all this.

Yes. This is why you can use a Kitfox whose design capabilities would allow flying at 1550 lb for light sport, but see below. So, you build it, fly the phase 1 tests up to 1320, record 1320 as the maximum weight tested during phase 1, that becomes the maximum gross weight that you can fly that particular airplane at. It is legal for LSA. Then lets say that later on you do get your private pilot certificate, or they raise the LSA weight limit and you would like to use the extra capability of the airplane. You simply notify your FSDO about what you want to do, they will have you re-enter phase 1 flight testing, you test it up to the new gross weight you want and voila... you now have a higher gross weight. The notification and approval to re-enter phase 1 can and probably will be by phone and e-mail. Simple. Also, depending on how you interpret your operating limitations, it might not even require notifying FAA. They have changed the standard wording on Op Lims many times over the years. I know that for my Sonerai, I can basically do anything and re-enter phase 1 on my own because it was finished at a time when the op lims were very lenient. Nowadays, the op lims are a bit more stringent, but I still don't this would require notification since no actual changes to the airplane are made. Simply make a log entry saying re-entering phase 1 to verify flight performance at increased weight, do the testing and make another entry when done.

Be aware though that once you go above 1320 you don't get to come back down. This is why folks buying an already built airplane need to be careful about what the tested gross weight was. For example, the original builder sets the gross weight of his Series 7 at 1550. A new buyer can't just make a log entry saying the gross weight is limited to 1320 and fly it as an lsa. It had already gone over, so can't come back down.

[Maverick]

I set my gross to 1320# but classified it as Experimental Armature Built based on the recommendation of one of the advisors at EAA headquarters. He said that doing this would make it so the market for selling it when the time comes would be larger because if a private pilot wanted it to have a heavier gross weight it could go up whereas if you classified it as Experimental Light Sport, that would not be possible.

https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aviation-interests/light-sport-aircraft/getting-started-in-lsa/learn-about-lsa-aircraft/Experimental%20Light-Sport%20Aircraft

[chipjumper]

You want this to be an E-LSA if you can go that route. It will substantially increase value as future owners can take a 2-day course to qualify to apply for a Repairman Certificate for that particular aircraft. With an EAB, only the builder listed on the 8130-12 can have the repairman cert thus perform “condition inspections” in addition to A&P and IA’s.
With an E-LSA, ANY CURRENT OWNER who holds a Repairman Cert (qualified by either building it or taking the two-day course) or A&P or IA can perform the condition inspection.
Of course, theoretically any ******* can perform maintenance or repairs on an experimental...

[109JB]

To register as an E-LSA it has to be built from an approved E-LSA kit. You cannot just register any homebuilt airplane as a E-LSA even if that airplane does meet the LSA criteria.

Also, if you register as EAB it is only paperwork to get the repairman certificate for your airplane.

On the other hand if you register as E-LSA (If you even can), then YOU would have to take a 16 hours course to be able to do the condition inspections on your airplane that you just finished building.

There is nothing theoretical about it. Anyone can do maintenance on an EAB except for the condition inspection.

Here is some reading: http://www.faa-aircraft-certification.com/experimental-light-sport.html
https://inspire.eaa.org/2019/05/16/be-your-own-mechanic-the-secondhand-homebuilt-aircraft-owners-guide-to-maintenance/

[chipjumper]

To register as an E-LSA it has to be built from an approved E-LSA kit. You cannot just register any homebuilt airplane as a E-LSA even if that airplane does meet the LSA criteria.


You hit the nail on the head. Are nearly all KF kits E-LSA qualified? I’m a Flightworks Capella XS owner who’s bird barely made the cutoff date to register it as n E-LSA (“None, Reg. Prior to 01/31/08”)

[efwd]

I believe John has it correct "approved" E-LSA kit. An E-LSA has to be built as Kitfox dictates. It has to be built the same as the S-LSA to be approved and I believe Kitfox does not have this option. I could be wrong but EAB is our only option I believe. A call To Kitfox would clarify that for certain. This may explain why you don't see them registered E-LSA?