View Full Version : Geek's STi Build
Flipped over the fuselage to start the prep and covering of the bottom. Funny how when you do something like and and change the perspective of how you are looking at stuff you find more to do. I installed the avionic trays that go behind the panel, the header tank drain, the transponder ground plane and then, finally got to lay the skin over the bottom. Traced out all the fuselage points that I will glue the skin to and have started brushing on the glue.
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Got the fuselage bottom skin glued and tightened. With Oratex you need to glue the skin pretty much all the way around the tubes at the edge (where possible). So once the bottom was attached really well, I flipped the fuselage back over (with some help from my son) and did the trimming of the excess and got it glued to the tubes. Pretty happy with the whole process and a lot of the consternation I had about doing the covering is easing up a bit. You watch enough videos and read the instructions enough times and it seems to work. Had to order a bit more glue to finish off the fuselage so I started on the elevator. Got the right side glued but have to wait a day for the glue to set before I can fully tighten it. Certainly not as easy as the wings or what I've done on the fuselage so far but not crazy hard either. Made good use of the hold downs on the table saw outfeed table which made controlling the elevator while pulling on the Oratex much easier. If I hadn't had them, I would have had to wait for someone else to come hold the elevator while I did the pulling. Will start the left side tomorrow since it doesn't seem to use much glue at all to get them set up.
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Kitfox Pilot
08-12-2022, 05:48 PM
Looking good Gary, you are nearing the halfway point!
I really like the spring assist after I put it on.
If you are not comfortable not rib stitching by all means rib stitch, it sure won't hurt anything. I only have 60 hours so I'm still proving it. I check fabric every time I fly. So far no problem. The good think about about oratex is I can rib stitch later if I decide there's a need to.
Keep on Building!
Thanks Harlan. I hadn't thought about the rib stitching that way but you are so right. Since we don't have to paint with Oratex, we have the option to stitch any time. Good data point on your plane as well as Dustins - neither are stitched.
G
My elevator is covered. Still need to do the finishing tapes but the major part is done. While waiting for the glue to dry on the Oratex, I started fitting the fairings on the landing gear struts. You cut the fairing part lengthwise to wind up with a front and rear fairing. The table saw made short work of that. Gotta like a good carbide blade for that kind of stuff. Got the fairings pretty much dialed in and started Hysoling the fitted fairings to the struts. This will be one of those things that when I get to that part in the instructions, the parts will be ready to go. I had made a bunch of stuff like that over the Winter so when I got to them this summer, it was really nice to just go to the box and get the part - all good to go.
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Have decided that where I placed my wingtip lights on the wingtip edge fence (STi) was not going to let me get away from not having a taillight on the rudder. My only concern was how to wire it where if I had to pull the light out of its fixture or remove the rudder for some king of maintenance, there was no way to access the connector/wiring in the rudder other than cutting it and splicing it later. So I decided to build an access panel of sorts that let me do all the above. Took a piece of left-over Laker leading edge fiberglass and reformed it to the curve of the rudder leading edge fairing using a heat gun. Added in a couple stainless steel reinforcements on the edge, some nut plates and a grommet to pass the wire through. There's probably a more elegant way to do this but I'm happy with it. While waiting for parts to dry (Hysol and paint) I installed the fuel quantity sight tubes and primed the fairings I had installed on the landing gear struts. Lots of small stuff while I am getting ready to cover the sides of the fuselage. My son and I rolled the fuselage over on its side. Once my covering assistant gets home from flying lessons, I'll start that process.
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Rolled the fuselage over on its side to begin doing the side as well as setting the rudder deflection. Just easier when it's on its side. With Oratex you have to put a coat of glue on, let it dry three hours and put another coat of glue on so that both the skin and the frame have two coats. So while one is drying, I am either tacking on the skin or shrinking skin on another part. Right now I have the elevator done, the horiz stab is half done, left strut is done and I've gotten started on the fuselage. I would agree with Harlan (Farm Fox) that the side is a LOT harder than it looks. I also had quite the mistake. I thought the way to go was bottom, sides and then top. So I cut my pieces of Oratex to length for the sides and the top. Cut the first side to size, marked where the framework hit it so I could glue, and then laid out the piece for the top. It was real obvious to me that the top piece was never going to go on as one piece and I had not cut it large enough to split it in to two pieces. Went back to some of the builders logs on the forum and some videos on You Tube only to find out that you did the side and half the top as one section. The piece I had cut was now too small and I didn't have enough left to cut another. So my haste to get going cost me another 5 meters of Oratex. Not a cheap lesson for certain but that's what happens when you get in a hurry and don't listen to your own advice to check before you cut.
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Kitfox Pilot
08-29-2022, 07:27 PM
I feel for you Gary but it's nice to know I'm not the only one that screws up! Haha. You do great work as far as I can see.
Please explain the process involved to how you got such a lovely finish on the aluminium top console. It looks amazing
Hiya again, what tool did you use to dimple the window frames?
Please explain the process involved to how you got such a lovely finish on the aluminium top console. It looks amazing
Hiya again, what tool did you use to dimple the window frames?
Jez - The finish is a vinyl coating. Really good stuff and easy to work with. Before I put the vinyl on, I riveted in all the parts using solid flathead rivets (not the pop rivets from the kit) and then put down a layer of Poly Fibre Super Fill and sanded that flat, and primed it. The vinyl is really easy to work with and seems pretty durable.
I used a squeeze riveter with dimpling heads installed to do the dimples.
Gary
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Thanks Gary, so much information for me to take on board for my build. Fantastic build thread
I completed covering the left side and left half of the top of the fuselage along with the right landing gear strut and the bottom of the horiz stab. I think I am about half way done now. I have read other logs where builders are happy when done with the covering. You may count me as being among that group. With the left side done, I will be installing the static ports since it will be easier to put the left one in and fit/cut the tube for the right side without the right skin installed. Also going to install the baggage sack and mark off where I want to install the zippers in the back of it to gain easy access behind. My transponder and trim controls are back behind it so I want it to be easy access.
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Hardwood
09-07-2022, 05:25 PM
Hello Mr. Phenning,
I’ve noticed some red stuff over the heads of all your nuts and bolts. I assume that is to help you tell if they have come loose, it looks very professional. May I ask what it is called please? Thanks a lot, I pray my build will look as good as yours as I progress.
Matt
Matt - It's called Permatex Bolt Mark. Here's an Amazon link for the stuff: https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-Bolt-Tamper-Proof-Indicator-Paste/dp/B08FTJZNPD/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2MA5GT5J23GAM&keywords=permatex+bolt+mark+red&qid=1662598319&sprefix=Permatex+bolt%2Caps%2C202&sr=8-1
It's used to tell if a nut/bolt is coming loose but for me it's a quick visual clue if I have tightened the fastener up to the correct torque and it doesn't require me to go back and tighten/adjust it later. I also bought a bunch of regular nuts, painted them red and use them in place of where standard self locking nuts will be used in the final assembly (again so I know by looking that it's not complete). Technically you're not supposed to re-use those nuts I guess.
I'm sure your build will be great. Best advice is don't hurry - take your time and read the directions. If those don't give you a good idea of what you need to do - ask the question here on the forum. There are some really smart, experienced people here that will take their time to give you great answers.
Gary
Hardwood
09-10-2022, 08:28 AM
[QUOTE=Geek;105788]Matt - It's called Permatex Bolt Mark. Here's an Amazon link for the stuff: https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-Bolt-Tamper-Proof-Indicator-Paste/dp/B08FTJZNPD/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2MA5GT5J23GAM&keywords=permatex+bolt+mark+red&qid=1662598319&sprefix=Permatex+bolt%2Caps%2C202&sr=8-1
Thanks Gary, I love the idea. It is a great visual clue and I think it dresses up the build at the same time. Thanks for the link, I’ve added it to my TGL (To Get List) as I am going to incorporate that into my build also since I’m much farther behind. I am taking my time, sometimes a second and a third! I don’t know if I read in your posts early on when you were putting in your seat pan but I did see some complex math in there for figuring out an arc’s location.
While I’m here, I was looking at your wing rotisserie. I didn’t see if you offered up any plans so I will just ask a question. Does glued together PVC really support a wing from both sides or do you have some sort of reinforcement inside those pipes? I bought some 2” PVC to go on the wall early on to hang my wing tips on but they didn’t end up fitting, so I assume you are using 1-½”?
Thanks again and have a great day.
Matt
Yeah the 2 inch glued works just fine. Sorry for the short answer. Attending the Tailhook convention in Reno So connection is scarce
Gary
Hardwood
09-12-2022, 03:13 AM
Ok Gary thanks. Full Speed Ahead!
............. I don’t know if I read in your posts early on when you were putting in your seat pan but I did see some complex math in there for figuring out an arc’s location.
While I’m here, I was looking at your wing rotisserie. I didn’t see if you offered up any plans so I will just ask a question. Does glued together PVC really support a wing from both sides or do you have some sort of reinforcement inside those pipes? I bought some 2” PVC to go on the wall early on to hang my wing tips on but they didn’t end up fitting, so I assume you are using 1-½”?
Thanks again and have a great day.
Matt
Home again after seeing a bunch of good friends and copious libations. The seat belt side hole locations were a bit of a pain. Think I saw the same post you did on developing the arc to define the cuts. I think I took a couple shots at drawing it on the seat pan before I actually thought it looked OK and was good to cut. As for the rotisserie, I looked at some of the plans that I found on Google (where else?) and then made some measurements on my wings to be sure they would fit. Yes the PVC is 1 1/2" Schedule 40 PVC and I have had zero issues with it holding. Not sure the thin PVC would hold but the Schedule 40 does. You're making good progress!!
Gary
Hardwood
09-12-2022, 10:40 AM
Hello Gary, sounds like a good time was had.
I’m not much of a plumber so I will have to look into the schedule 40 PVC. I’d like to get them off the wall for sure and be able to spin them about much like my fuselage which I think I have figured out. I’ll have to get on the Google and look for some plans. Thanks again Gary, you have a good day.
Been busy working on the right side of the fuselage and the horiz stab. Have to be sure I stay ahead of Alex M. The right side of the fuselage is done. I made some doublers to go around the fitting where the rudder cable exits the fuselage. They will support the Oratex there so I don't have any issues later on. The plan is to make a fairing that will go over the exit point and nicely cover this spot. The doubler will provide me some support for the fairing as well. I completed the horiz stab covering so that part is ready for finishing tapes along with all the rest of the parts. I did put finishing tapes on the fuselage so that's complete. Since I am getting ready to close off the right top of the fuselage, I installed the transponder so it is good to go.
Gary
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alexM
09-13-2022, 07:40 PM
Dammit, I was hoping your festivities would take longer to recover from. You still have a very comfortable lead.
Jason Murphy
09-17-2022, 03:23 PM
Will you be using a rudder cable faring? I saw products available on the spruce website for an external fairing which would go over the top of the cable.
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Been busy working on the right side of the fuselage and the horiz stab. Have to be sure I stay ahead of Alex M. The right side of the fuselage is done. I made some doublers to go around the fitting where the rudder cable exits the fuselage. They will support the Oratex there so I don't have any issues later on. The plan is to make a fairing that will go over the exit point and nicely cover this spot. The doubler will provide me some support for the fairing as well. I completed the horiz stab covering so that part is ready for finishing tapes along with all the rest of the parts. I did put finishing tapes on the fuselage so that's complete. Since I am getting ready to close off the right top of the fuselage, I installed the transponder so it is good to go.
Gary
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Got the right side of the vertical stab covered but have to wait 24 hours before I can shrink the skin. I refit the rudder to the vertical just to verify the separation between the two items so that the rudder swings clean but not a large gap. In attaching the rudder, I decided I liked the opening on the bottom of the rudder to put that first lower bolt in but I didn't like the thought of leaving it open to the elements. Think it's normally closed up by the skin. So I built a cover that I will place over the opening that will allow me access but keep stuff out of there. I also installed the tailwheel locking cable out the rear of the fuselage. Didn't like the idea of just running the cable out like that so I took a piece of carbon fiber (shaft for an arrow) and slid into the fuselage and then ran the cable through that. The black bracket in the pic is the rear mount for the T3 tailwheel spring.
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Jason - "Will you be using a rudder cable faring? I saw products available on the spruce website for an external fairing which would go over the top of the cable." Yeah I saw those and actually bought them but not sure I like them. Unless you mount them way forward, they will interfere with the attachment of the struts for the horiz stab I think and they REALLY stick out!! As in over an inch and I don't think we need that much on the Kitfox. I'll keep em around but right now my plan is to make my own out of sheet metal.
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Kitfox Pilot
09-17-2022, 05:32 PM
Good looking work you are doing there Gary. Have you covered a plane before? I just wondered how working with oratex was compared to the regular covering.
jrevens
09-17-2022, 11:27 PM
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Jason - "Will you be using a rudder cable faring? I saw products available on the spruce website for an external fairing which would go over the top of the cable." Yeah I saw those and actually bought them but not sure I like them. Unless you mount them way forward, they will interfere with the attachment of the struts for the horiz stab I think and they REALLY stick out!! As in over an inch and I don't think we need that much on the Kitfox. I'll keep em around but right now my plan is to make my own out of sheet metal.
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I used those... just cut them down to what I needed. They work well.
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I used those... just cut them down to what I needed. They work well.
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And there's why I like this forum so much!!! Thanks John. Had not looked at that approach.
Gary
Good looking work you are doing there Gary. Have you covered a plane before? I just wondered how working with oratex was compared to the regular covering.
Wow Harlan. That's a complement for sure but no, I have never covered an aircraft before. Any success I have had can be all attributed to people like you who put their experiences either here or made videos that I could watch over and over. The post after yours here from John Evans is a classic example. A part I was thinking was junk - really wasn't. I am pretty impressed with Oratex. Is it going to give you a high gloss smooth exterior like paint? Nope. Does it appear to be perfect for flying off airport and taking the lumps and bumps it's going to get? Yup. Perfect example is your hammer test on your videos. The stuff seems pretty resilient and seems to hide all the dunderhead things I have done so far.
Gary
I used those... just cut them down to what I needed. They work well.
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Had to head to the shop and try this. John is right - they work well but mine at least needed a touch of modification. The inside width dimension of the fairing is 5/16 and the outside diameter of the cable support is 3/8". After I cut it off, you could push the fairing down over it (it flexes out) but it really didn't want to fit down flat on the fuselage. I took a 3/8" bolt, clamped it to spread the fairing and then hit it with my heat gun set to 250 degrees F. Didn't take a lot of heat - maybe a minute. Waited 10 minutes and pulled the clamp off. The inside dimension stayed at 3/8" but the edges splayed up a bit and so while it fit over the support fine, it didn't set flat. Put the bolt back in, laid the fairing down on the bench and hit it with the heat gun again. Then I quickly clamped the fairing down to the bench, bolt and all with a couple pieces of plywood to hold those edges flat. Waited the magic 10 minutes and it works perfectly. Sits flat on the fuselage and fits over the support. Thanks John!!
Here's a pic where you can see the difference in the one I modified and the one that isn't.
G
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Pushboy
09-21-2022, 06:30 PM
Just curious -- but how to you attach the cable fairing to the fabric? -- i.e. is it glue? What type?
Thanks -- Dave.
Just curious -- but how to you attach the cable fairing to the fabric? -- i.e. is it glue? What type?
Thanks -- Dave.
Going to use thin cyanoacrylate adhesive (aka Super glue) after they are painted. It's also the recommended way to attach the inspection rings to the skin. If it works for those I don't think there will be an issue with the fairings.
Gary
jrevens
09-21-2022, 11:08 PM
I used gel superglue. It seems to work just fine. Rough up the mating surface of the fairing a little before gluing.
Finished both sides of the vertical stab (except for the finish tapes) and also completed covering the rudder. I used the envelope method on the rudder just to try it out and while it's a bit more cumbersome to work on the piece with that full second half of fabric hanging out there, it does make for a nice leading edge without a seam. (So if you're keeping score Alex, All I have left to cover is the top right half of the fuselage and I'll do that after I install the baggage sack that I am modifying with a zipper in the back.......Get to work. No more slacking off on those two weeks off mate!!) I also painted all the flaperon brackets so they are all ready to install later this Winter. Painted and installed the cover I made for the bottom of the rudder as well. While I was painting, I thought I would paint my inspection panels too. Was really happy with the way they came out and thought I had picked the perfect day for it (no paint booth - outside on a table). Left them to dry out in the sun and came back to find that the wind had come up and blown the plastic covering the table (that I thought I had secured) up and on to the panels. So it's back to the sandpaper and paint them again.
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Thanks Eddie. I am using Oratex so I am at least ducking the bullet on six layers BUT your advice is still valid in that I think it's too tight for even that. I'll make sure that once I have all the controls to the back installed and am ready to rig them I get that figured out and accounted for. Appreciate the input.
Gary
Hi there, did you have to open the gap on the rod ends at the top and bottom of the vertical stabiliser and rudder after? I have just set mine at the recommended distances for now. But like Eddie said, it would be nice if I did not have to go back and do it again.
Hi there, did you have to open the gap on the rod ends at the top and bottom of the vertical stabiliser and rudder after? I have just set mine at the recommended distances for now. But like Eddie said, it would be nice if I did not have to go back and do it again.
Truth is I set it up and then somewhere along the line I made the decision to pull it apart and do it again when I was ready. I knew I had to do it again once I covered, and then there was setting the rudder deflection (since I had not read ahead on the forum to not file the rudder stops till after you're really ready and have the gap really set.) The direct answer to your question is yes, I did have to open them up a bit from my initial measurements. I set them again once I had covered, set the deflection again and my next step is to set the rudder cable lengths. Hopefully then I won't take the rudder off again.
Gary
Laid in two of the fuel lines from the header tank to the main fuel valve and the return line check valve. Made sure they cleared the seat and the floorboards. Started putting in the brake lines from the master cylinders to the parking brake. Not sure I am happy with those but actually putting them in gave me a real look at what's there and maybe some other options. Also installed my static ports. I installed two of them, one on each side, in the suggested Kitfox locations. Should help me with my airspeed indications while slipping. I know many have just terminated the static input within the cabin and if I don't like what I see with what I have, I can always revert to that. I cut the tail wheel locking cable to length, tinned the cable per the instructions and attached the tail wheel to the T3 suspension. The pic of the channel locks in the vise is how I tinned the cable. I used a copper plumbing termination, heated it using a Mapp gas torch, loaded it with solder and it worked perfectly. Thanks to Harlan for his video showing how he did it which I admit was how I got the idea to use the copper pipe termination for the tinning.
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Shadowrider
10-04-2022, 10:18 AM
Looks good Gary! Sorry not trying to be one of those, "you know what you should do" type of person......but I didn't get this tip until later to flip the brakes 180 so the brass 90 doesn't hit into the firewall. Cory and myself both built as per plan and they both hit the firewall when braking and turning. After the fact I learn that some flip the brakes 180 and it gives you more clearance to the firewall. Maybe you have already heard this and decided against it? Its coming along and your almost to the best part; setting the engine and wiring!
Dustin - I am always willing to listen to people's ideas so never worry about that "you know what you should do" thing. If I like a suggestion, I'll give it a shot. If I don't - well I don't. You will notice the black sheath on my brake lines. Did you wonder where I got that idea from? You as well as others, have been a great source of information and willingness to share your knowledge so please keep them coming when you see me possibly heading down the wrong path. As for the idea of swapping the cylinders on the brakes around? I had not heard about that one. But I sure as heck am going to take a look at that as an option. Doesn't mean I'll do it but I sure want to make a conscious decision about which option I want when the time comes. Thanks for the suggestion.
I am looking forward to engine and wiring for certain. Those are my Winter projects where I can hide in the warm shop and not care about the snow falling outside.
Gary
alexM
10-04-2022, 01:30 PM
Geek is being modest about his shop. It's not only heated, I recall the A/C works just fine too. Lots of room to make cool stuff.
I had not even visualized those elbows on the master cylinders so I hadn't considered them hitting the firewall, but I definitely see the potential now.
Great job on the fuel lines Gary. I was going to use 100% flexible line but now that I have a tubing bender I might mess around with hard lines.
Thanks Alex. I am actually toying with the idea of running hard lines from the header tank up to the top of the cockpit and then connecting up to flexible lines there for the wing fold. Haven't locked in on that but it is ruminating in my little pea brain. You back from the wild and woolly North country?
G
Jerrytex
10-06-2022, 08:40 AM
I had the same thought about running hard lines from the header tank and converting to rubber near the rear spar. But after folding my wings umpteen many times during the building and moving process, I realized that the fuel lines really need some freedom of movement when folding the wings. I have to release the fabric "tubes" that contain the fuel lines and wiring to the wings, from the cross bars behind the seat, or else the fuel lines are put under a lot of stress at the butt ribs. If you move the hard line to rubber connection point closer to the rear spar pivot point, you'd definitely have to come up with a way to get some slack to be able to fold the wings. Wouldn't be a problem if you never folded the wings, but if you ever "had to" fold them, you'd probably have to add disconnecting the fuel lines to the process.
Your build is really coming along and looks awesome! I do like the look of the black on the back of the fabric as opposed to the orange, splotchy, Marbled look of poly fiber.
Thank you!! Really appreciate the 'real world' input. I will be folding my wings pretty regular since there are literally no hangars to be had around here and the waiting list is long. If I were to go the hard line route, was thinking of using stainless line instead of the aluminum that's in the kit. The aluminum would have bent really easy and the stainless would have held it's shape better. Stainless is a bear to bend (did that in my car rebuilding days) but the bends would not have been too bad. Also thinking I might add some shut off valves up there just to keep from having the 'auto wing fuel transfer' that some have experienced when parking on an incline which would give me a place to disconnect the line but do I want to do that every time? Not inclined that way.
Thanks again for weighing in. Can't beat experience.
Gary
Have been working on some painting before the weather turns cold but have been somewhat hampered by smoke from our fires up here in the PNW. The smoke is getting old and since I don't have a paint booth - the particulate in the smoke likes to stick to the wet paint. Luckily most of what I am doing is primer right now so it gets sanded. I also went back and looked at how I might possibly do the brake lines differently since I wasn't really happy with the way my original attempt turned out. The two big changes this time were routing three of the lines through the holes in the rudder pedal assembly mounts (think maybe that's what Brandon put them in there for to start with) and putting loops in three of the lines to let them flex better with full deflection of the pedals. Much happier with the way they work now and keeping them away from moving parts.
I also started laying out my panel and saved the pic here as a large so that if you open it, it's easier to see (I hope). Reason being I am soliciting any inputs from anyone on it. Looking for mistakes you might see or anywhere there might be an improvement. Haven't started cutting anything yet. Wanted to ponder this design a bit and see if there isn't something I might like better after thinking about it. Thanks ahead of time on this.
Gary
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alexM
10-08-2022, 03:11 PM
Looks great (cool switch guards). I suggest you put the panel in the plane and check for physical reach. I even printed 1:1 color images and taped them in place. I'm sure it will work exactly as is but it gives you an excuse to sit in the plane and make airplane noises.
And yes, the holes in the brackets are to route hoses.
rv9ralph
10-08-2022, 06:59 PM
Gary,
Just a note on the brake lines... with loops (high spots) there is a possibility of an air bubble getting trapped, making bleeding of the brakes difficult.
Also, I can't remember, but are you installing an iS engine? If so, I didn't see the start button (couldn't read the labels). With the Rotax iS engines, there is a momentary power switch to energize the lanes before pushing the start button. I tried enlarging the image but the labels were still not readable.
........but it gives you an excuse to sit in the plane and make airplane noises.......
Thanks Alex but I need no excuse. This has become a regular occurrence every happy hour!!! I actually bought full size stick-ons of the Garmin stuff and did a 'function check' of the positions.
Gary,
Just a note on the brake lines... with loops (high spots) there is a possibility of an air bubble getting trapped, making bleeding of the brakes difficult.
Also, I can't remember, but are you installing an iS engine? If so, I didn't see the start button (couldn't read the labels). With the Rotax iS engines, there is a momentary power switch to energize the lanes before pushing the start button. I tried enlarging the image but the labels were still not readable.
Good comment Chief. Glad to hear from the Goat Locker!!! I have a pressure bleeder that I plan on using which should help with that issue but also plan to reach in and pull the loops down level (vice vertical) while I'm bleeding brakes to alleviate that air bubble thing. Thank God for having put brake systems in cars I was restoring (which is why I have a pressure bleeder. --Once you use one you will never go back to the old pump and hold method). You remember correctly on the iS motor and the start button is on the panel. Sorry you couldn't read my chicken scratch. It's in the traditional spot just below the left vent.
Thanks to both of you for taking look and the feedback.
Gary
rv9ralph
10-09-2022, 07:03 PM
You remember correctly on the iS motor and the start button is on the panel.
Do you have the start button and the momentary power switch set up for one handed use? I have an ergonomic placement in mind. I did a short demo video of it. (I haven't uploaded it yet so I can't post it). If there is any interest in a one handed arrangement for the start sequence I can set it up for posting.
Do you have the start button and the momentary power switch set up for one handed use? I have an ergonomic placement in mind. I did a short demo video of it. (I haven't uploaded it yet so I can't post it). If there is any interest in a one handed arrangement for the start sequence I can set it up for posting.
I laid out the standard Kitfox configuration with the momentary switch horizontally mounted by the throttle so my right hand is on the throttle and my right thumb can hold the start power switch during a start sequence. I don't see that as a big deal and like the idea of having my hand on the throttle during a start but am intrigued by the one handed approach. I could ask a bunch of questions on how you would go about that (like - combined the momentary start and start power switches into one?) but would be interested in seeing the video on your idea. Just cause I like it doesn't mean there might be another way and it sounds like you've been thinking outside the box which is awesome.
Gary
rv9ralph
10-10-2022, 07:15 PM
...but would be interested in seeing the video...
Gary,
Here is a link to the short video. I have been trying to get to view correctly, hopefully the link works.
https://youtube.com/shorts/bU1BvgZC8W4?feature=share
Gary,
Here is a link to the short video. I have been trying to get to view correctly, hopefully the link works.
https://youtube.com/shorts/bU1BvgZC8W4?feature=share
Worked great Ralph. Now I have MORE to think about. I am thinking the ON portion of the switch you have could be the Battery Back Up so this is really just moving the switch from next to the throttle to under the start switch? Certainly looks like an option. Thanks for posting the video.
Gary
Installed the ELT antenna on the mounting tab that Kifox has on the airframe. Used the coax cable that is supplied by the manufacturer which is a requirement from them to insure proper operation of the ELT. Started cutting out the panel and took it very slow to get the openings correct. Completed that and installed the panel (temporarily) in the fuselage. I installed the Garmin panel, the G5 attitude indicator (my back up if the main panel fails), the autopilot and the radio to get an assessment of where I might want to put the other Garmin G3 system boxes once I start wiring. While the radio sticks back from the panel a bit, the autopilot and the G5 don't so there is quite a bit of space there. Decided to add in a shelf behind the autopilot that will hold my engine monitor which is also a short box. Plenty of room for the autopilot electrical connectors and makes the wiring that comes from the engine to the monitor also very easy to access and wire. The shelf structure also provides a support brace for the rear end of the radio mounting rack. Not quite done with the shelf yet so that's still a work in progress. I also modified my baggage sack with two zippers on the back which will allow me to access the transponder and autopilot servo that are mounted back behind the baggage area. Once I get this shelf done, I am planning on installing the baggage sack and floor.
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LetMeFly
10-23-2022, 11:11 PM
Hey Gary,
I see that your ELT antenna sticks up above the level of the baggage bag. I went to install mine and noticed the same thing. What are you going to do about that? Cut a hole for it to stick out? I was thinking of bending the tab so the antenna would point further forward to clear the front of the ELT, but I'll hold off to see what you do. :D
Hey Gary,
I see that your ELT antenna sticks up above the level of the baggage bag. I went to install mine and noticed the same thing. What are you going to do about that? Cut a hole for it to stick out? I was thinking of bending the tab so the antenna would point further forward to clear the front of the ELT, but I'll hold off to see what you do. :D
Not sure yet Greg. Sorry that it's not much of an answer for you. I saw it sticking up but wanted to see the overall impact once it all came together when I get the bag and the turtle deck installed. Thinking I might insulate that tip so as not to short it out on the frame and just curve it over but want to go back to my old antenna textbooks and see what the overall impact of that would be to the radiation pattern. But again if I get all the parts together and it's not much of an issue, then cutting a hole and just letting it protrude may be the simple answer. Certainly we aren't the first ones to run into this so sure that someone will chime in with their solution.
alexM
10-24-2022, 09:26 AM
It was suggested to me that letting it stick through a hole in the baggage compartment was a great way to keep it from rattling against the fuselage framework. Seems like it solves a potential problem.
....... Certainly we aren't the first ones to run into this so sure that someone will chime in with their solution.
See? Told you someone would come up with a good reason for this. Thanks Alex.
G
jiott
10-24-2022, 12:45 PM
I just bent the antenna forward so that it cleared. It doesn't take that much bending.
LetMeFly
10-24-2022, 05:19 PM
I just bent the antenna forward so that it cleared. It doesn't take that much bending.
OK! We have one vote for "hole through the bag" and one vote for "bend it". Any one else? :confused: :D
I just bent the antenna forward so that it cleared. It doesn't take that much bending.
Jim - You've run the test on the ELT with the bent antenna and it passed OK? Am guessing yes since you don't seem the type to do something that would interfere with the ELT doing its job if required.
G
jrevens
10-24-2022, 06:09 PM
I lowered the mount so that the tip end was below the cargo bay sack. I just preferred the look. This is a picture of how I had it originally, before lowering. I stabilized it with the plastic tube stand-off and a piece of silicone tubing on the tip. Unnecessary because going through a hole in the fabric would have been sufficient.
jiott
10-24-2022, 09:53 PM
Gary, yes I run the annual ELT tests with no problems.
Also, look at it from a logic standpoint; radio comm antennas (similar frequency as ELT) can be purchased bent at about 70 degrees for mounting on the bottom of the airplane-I have one. No performance problems.
jiott
10-24-2022, 10:05 PM
I'm not saying there won't be small performance changes with a bent antenna; it probably depends on the amount of bending. The amount we are talking about here is pretty small. Google "bent radio antenna" and you can read lots of stuff.
Jim, John and the rest of you all... Thanks for the inputs. Like I told Greg, I hadn't really thought much about it yet other than I knew it stuck up and I would have to make some sort of accommodation - just didn't know what. All this is good stuff and taking it all into consideration, knowing that the bend doesn't seem to interfere with performance and making a tip holder to keep it from hitting the frame/skin is a good thing just gives me a good idea of what I will do when I install the bag and all. Again appreciate your all weighing in on this one.
Gary
My fuselage is finally fully covered. Still have to do the finish tapes but the last top section is done and for all who read this and are thinking about using Oratex, that curved transition to the vertical stab has been the hardest part of all to cover for me. Getting the material to lay over that curve was a bear. I needed to use the heat gun to do it with the wife pulling on the material to get it down and attached on the curve. I had to cut small strips to relieve much of the stress and then we did each small section one at a time. I still have to do the finish tapes along the top center there and know that there is a trick to that as well but don't think it will be as much of an issue as this was. My panel layout, cutting and fitting is complete. I decided to send the panel to Stein Aircraft to do the engraving and labels. My experience getting this set up was the same as my experience buying the avionics: great. They estimate 3 to 5 weeks to get the panel back to me.
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Shadowrider
10-28-2022, 05:29 PM
Man my fingers hurt thinking back to stretching the Oratex. That part was my least favorite…..bet your glad to check that off!
Kitfox Pilot
10-28-2022, 06:37 PM
You got it Gary, that is the toughest area. The finishing tape is not much easier but you have got it figured out so you won't have any trouble. Looking good!
Man my fingers hurt thinking back to stretching the Oratex. That part was my least favorite…..bet your glad to check that off!
Yes I will admit there was the "Oratex Happy Dance" that occurred in the shop. No witnesses, no video, but it did happen. I will agree with you that those two parts were the worst part of it all. Great to see the frame sort of look like a plane but ..........dang that curve was a pain.
You got it Gary, that is the toughest area. The finishing tape is not much easier but you have got it figured out so you won't have any trouble. Looking good!
From your lips Harlan to God's ears. I have watched your video of that bit of fun a couple times (made the wife watch it too so she knew what she was in for when the time came). Think that little party will come this week. Got to get the tractor converted over to the snow blower and some other stuff put away before the snow hits.
G
I got my baggage sack back from the seamstress who sewed in my zippers and modified my Velcro so I can fold down the opening and keep the back sides of the sack supported. Really happy with the way this came out. Makes access to my transponder, trim control and auto pilot servo pretty easy. I also completed the covering of the vertical stab to fuselage finishing tape as well so that's all complete now. While waiting for the glue to dry on that part, I installed the Monster Shock Cabane main landing gear struts. Set the camber at 4 degrees but didn't attach the axles yet. I know the pic makes the plane look like it's not sitting level but that's the camera angle. It really does sit perfectly level.
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Merry Christmas to both you Harlan and Susan!! Thanks for the comment. It had to of been that nicopress tool I managed to score from a guy who built this really nice Kitfox!! It had great Karma on it.
G
Hi there, I am on the part of the build which requires me to do a bit of swaging. Can you recommend me a nicopress tool, or anything else I need to make this job go swimmingly. Thanks. Jez
That's exactly what I didn't want to do for exactly the reasons I didn't want to do it!! I was very aware of what the downside was to that. As for the primer - oh yeah. Like I said I have a list of the small parts I've made that need primer and when the can gets popped - the list comes out. I will admit this time that I am testing the statement that the primer is good for three days after mixing cause I want to paint the fiberglass fairing on the vertical stab but it was a touch wet outside yesterday. Today will be OK I think.
Did any of you guys think of just using the yellow chromate zinc stuff on your aluminium parts ? I know it’s nasty stuff, but so much cheaper, and you can reuse the tin I think.
Hi there, I am on the part of the build which requires me to do a bit of swaging. Can you recommend me a nicopress tool, or anything else I need to make this job go swimmingly. Thanks. Jez
Kitfox sells a simple nicompress tool that many use to successfully do the job. Harlan had managed to score a used "pro" version of the press and was done with his. He made the comment on a video that he was thinking about selling it so I jumped on it before he changed his mind. Much easier to use than the simple one BUT more expensive. You should be able to look in the Kitfox catalog and find the press. There are any number of places that sell that one or one very close to it.
Did any of you guys think of just using the yellow chromate zinc stuff on your aluminium parts ? I know it’s nasty stuff, but so much cheaper, and you can reuse the tin I think.
Nasty stuff is probably an understatement. Recent studies have shown that not only is zinc chromate highly toxic, it is also a carcinogen. Not worth it in my opinion. Would rather pay a bit more and not deal with the nasty.
Gary
Been busy doing a bunch of small stuff getting ready for bigger stuff. Made a support for the return fuel line check valve under the console. Utilized the tailwheel locking bracket to mount an Adel clamp. Now that the baggage sack was in, I installed the headset panels for both the copilot and the pilot. Pretty happy with the way they turned out. I finally received my 22 inch tundra tires that don't wear out quite so fast on paved runways and got them mounted on the wheels. These don't wear quite as fast as the Alaskan 29 inch that are so expensive. Plan is to fly with these till I am flying the Kitfox on something other than paved runways and then swap the the larger tires. Built some attachments points and Hysol'd them to the bottom of the fuselage that will allow me to attach the bottom rear of the firewall. These will hold the firewall tight and flush to the bottom of the plane. Also started on the heater install. Got the brackets riveted to the heater itself and installed the heater pass thru in the firewall.
Eric Page
11-13-2022, 07:47 PM
The little wood blocks with tee nuts are a clever idea; I like that!
The little wood blocks with tee nuts are a clever idea; I like that!
Thanks Eric. Best part about them was that they worked as planned!!
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Eric Page
11-14-2022, 03:32 PM
Beauty. The first owner of my kit glued a bunch of oddly-spaced metal tabs to one of the lateral tubes. I've been mulling what to do instead; now I have the answer!
I installed the GPS antenna in its bracket under the side of the baggage bag. Went in just like it was made for it. Oh. It was. Big news is that I have been inducted into the "Grind The Heck Out Of A 3/8 Wrench" club to install the rudder. I had read that getting the bolts in and the nuts on/tightened is a pain. I can confirm this. Max lesson in patience to not throw tools when you have two bolts in and drop the third one inside the rudder so you have to take it all apart to retrieve the bolt. I also rigged the rudder pedals and cables which meant I swedged the nicopress on both sides and was really happy with the results. The pedals don't hit the firewall when fully pressed and the pilot/copilot pedals all line up when the rudder is neutral. I also started the install of the tail light on the rudder. REALLY did not like cutting the hole for the wire to exit the inside of the rudder but it worked out. I did have to open up the inside of the fairing with a Dremmel so that should I ever have to do maintenance back there and remove the rudder, the connector for the light will slide by and clear the fairing as the rudder comes off. The connector would not clear the fairing otherwise. I'll permanently fasten the fairing to the rudder tomorrow and install the light itself into the fairing.
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alexM
11-19-2022, 11:19 AM
Those rudder bolts will test your patience. When I test fit mine I pretended the fabric was in place both visually and to prevent me from cheating to access the hardware. Once my covering is done I hope to install it and leave it for many years.
Been working some of the things I needed to complete in order to continue with putting the firewall on full time and starting with the firewall forward stuff. I finished installing the tail light and successfully tested it with a battery and the wires that run to the front. I started the heater installation but decided to do it a little different and not use the Adel clamps but rather built some aluminum cross mounts. The good news is that the install looks like it will be just fine but the bad news is that I am waiting for a couple longer bolts to mount the fans since my way makes the bolts Kitfox supplied about a half inch too short. I liked the idea where Dustin put a valve on the water line to the heater so you can shut it off in summer so I got that installed as well. I bought the 40Amp external alternator for my install and figured I would also put in the 22,000uf capacitor to make life a little easier on the voltage regulators. Built a mount for the cap and plan to put it on the firewall. Got my stick grips mounted to the control sticks and wired them into a Y cable which will allow me to run a single set of wires up to the instrument panel for the different buttons on the stick.
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Stein has told me that my panel has shipped so I am trying to get some things done so that when it gets here, I can play with that (wiring etc). Ran the fuel lines from the shut off valve and the check valve to the firewall and am in the process of running the wires that I have run already from the back of the plane, up to the area behind the firewall. Between the front of the console, fuel lines, rudder cable tension rollers and brake lines to the parking brake, that area is getting pretty busy. My first look at this was to build a cross member that holds the wiring back and away from the rollers and hold them with an Adel clamp. I keep looking at that knowing there are more things coming up through there (wing lights/magnetometer/pitot tubing) and wondering if there isn't a better way. So looking for any suggestions on how you all addressed this. The pic is what it looks like with the crossmember install. The wiring is kept about a quarter inch from the right side roller/springs through the full adjustment range. Thought about attaching the wire bundle to the fuel lines but always thought that was verboten.
Thanks ahead of time.
Gary
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bbs428
12-04-2022, 03:28 PM
You are 100% correct. But you knew that already! ;)
Quote from AC 43.131B (http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/99C827DB9BAAC81B86256B4500596C4E?OpenDocument) chapter 8 paragraph 31 page 8-19
b. Routing. Make sure that the line does
not chafe against control cables, airframe
structure, etc., or come in contact with electrical
wiring or conduit. Where physical separation
of the fuel lines from electrical wiring or
conduit is impracticable, locate the fuel line
below the wiring and clamp it securely to the
airframe structure. In no case should wiring be
supported by the fuel line.
You are 100% correct. But you knew that already! ;)........
Yeah maybe. It was one of those things I had heard over the years but never seen so while it made sense, if it was notional on someone's part then I didn't want to be locked in to not doing it. Appreciate the quote on what the rule 'really' is.
Gary
Received my panel back getting labled from Stein and am really happy with it. They did a nice job and were great to work with. Looking forward to populating it with the avionics and start the wiring. I finally secured all the wiring coming up from the back of the fuselage and the wiring from the wings (Magnetometer, nav lights, landing lights and pitot heat). Built a cross beam to secure the wiring to which will keep it clear of the tension rollers for the rudder cables as well as away from the two fuel lines going to the firewall feed through. Attached the trim tab to the rudder. Might have to make this a bit larger but decided this is my starting point. Will zero on on the size once we start flying. Last but not least, I mounted the brakes and tires to the struts. All these little things I wanted done before I actually start wiring.
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bbs428
12-08-2022, 12:52 PM
Instrument panel looks really nice!!
Might have to "borrow your cross-beam idea for the wiring. Keeping the wires out of the tension rollers is a good thing.
Smart to do all of that BEFORE the firewall is installed unlike me! Lol.
jrevens
12-08-2022, 01:24 PM
Looks very good, Gary! I love your dark carbon fiber look panel.
Thanks guys.
Brett I was looking at your build and saw that you are a retired ATC. I started in the Navy as an ATR (that'll give you some idea of when eh?) but literally spent my whole time flying. Got out as an AT2 but went straight into Simple Service. Had a lot of good Chiefs along the way. Some who weren't happy that I was flying and not working in my rate but still were good to me for sure. My daughter is a helo pilot in the Navy and has also been lucky getting good Chiefs when she was doing her Division Head and OIC stuff. I made sure she was smart enough to know a good one from a bad one and when you got a good one - keep him/her.
Thanks again for the comments and support.
Gary
bbs428
12-08-2022, 08:01 PM
ATR? Not familiar with that one. I'm familiar with aviation radio tech (ART). What were you flying in?
I was an AX initially and when they were phased out, hocus-pocus I became an AT.
I was mostly a maintainer but got back-seat qual'd in the S3A/B.
Had quite a few cats/traps on Vinson, Lincoln, Nimitz back in the day, mostly in VS-29 and VS-41.
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Your daughter fly's helo's, eh?
She must be one tough, smart gal, my hats off to Her.
Takes a lot of talent to be a Navy pilot, or any pilot for that matter in today's Military.
Good job dad!
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Keep up the great work on your plane. I'm enjoying your journey.
ATR? Not familiar with that one. I'm familiar with aviation radio tech (ART). What were you flying in?...........
Back in the early days ATs were divided into ATRs and ATNs. The Rs took care of radios and radars and the N did navigation equipment. About 71 or 72 the Navy decided that we would all just be ATs. Did two tours in Nam with VQ-1 on Kitty Hawk in Whales.
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Got out, went back to school and then back to work for the Navy as a Sandcrab. Worked in developmental flight test and later in operational flight test. Got time in Phantoms and Turkeys (F-14) getting to operate off of pretty much every boat we have (other than the Ford). Best career ever. Daughter is kicking it in her career. Deployments, RAG instructor, Horse Holder for the ADM at BUPERS and just got sent to the War College in Rhode Island for her Masters. Just kinda proud of her a bit. Even willing to overlook those helo things she flies.
Back when I was waiting for my kit to be delivered, I scoured this forum looking at what others were doing and your build was one of those I was hawking. Good stuff in there. Wish I had your talent with the spray gun. Painting seems to be my achilles heal.
Got my panel back from Stein who did an excellent job on the engraving so I figured I should start populating the panel and installing it. I also used the trusty label maker and made labels for all the switches and such that I could put on the back so I am sure what is going where. I also put connector designator labels on the boxes so I would be sure of which connector I was really running a wire to when I get into full on wiring. Since I am using the VPX to control the electronics, I was able to easily wire in the switches on the right side of the panel along with the ELT as well. Installed the GPS unit on its plate behind the seat, installed the control sticks and the ran the wiring to the respective boxes for the switches on the stick.
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Eric Page
12-19-2022, 06:17 PM
Gary, that panel looks great! Two questions: Is that a vinyl overlay, and if so, did Stein engrave right through the vinyl?
It is an overlay Eric. As I understood the process, they apply the overlay, do the cutouts, and then apply multiple coats of clear coat. If you look at the panel up close you can tell it's coated and it feels REALLY smooth to the touch. Once the clear coat has dried sufficiently, then the panel is engraved into the clear coat.
Gary
Kitfox Pilot
12-20-2022, 06:23 AM
That is a very nice panel Gary. I like the way you labeled the plugs; I used a marker on the back, haha. Shows you are in a class above me. Haha
Your wiring looks great and the detail securing of the wires is very nice.
bbs428
12-20-2022, 10:49 AM
Your panel is top notch! I enjoy seeing the attention to detail in your work.
Good stuff Gary.
That is a very nice panel Gary. I like the way you labeled the plugs; I used a marker on the back, haha. Shows you are in a class above me. Haha
Your wiring looks great and the detail securing of the wires is very nice.
Far from correct Harlan. Your plane is a beaut and you all did a great job on it. Was envious of how you made it a family event and the smiles all said they were happy to be there.
Your panel is top notch! I enjoy seeing the attention to detail in your work.
Good stuff Gary.
Thanks Brett. Coming from you after seeing how nice your paint is coming out is a true compliment. It's snowing here like a big dog so have done more plowing and helping neighbors then airplane today and most likely tomorrow. (when you have over a foot of snow and a tractor with a big blower - your neighbors who have small hand-pushed blowers all like you. And they pay with beer!!!).
Gary
alexM
12-20-2022, 07:28 PM
Finally something to slow you down!
Ullr, the Norse god of snow and ice obviously heard your request and granted it. This is the third day in a row I have not been able to work on the plane cause of snow and ice trying to keep stuff cleared out. C'mon Alex - give a guy a break!!! I'll wire slow. I promise.
Hope you had a great holiday. Was interested to hear what your Lane problem with the ferry flight turned out to be. Those lights seem to have some life of their own sometimes.
Gary
Finally got to start wiring on the Garmin system. One of the things I learned about wiring D Sub connectors back in my working days (daze?) was to put a black mark on both sides of the connector to ID pin 1. No matter how the connector is oriented or if it's the male or female side, it's easier to place pins with that visual reference. I wired in the mount and power supply for the iPad display. I also got the autopilot wired in as well. Since I have a G5 in the mix as a back up attitude indicator, it has its own GPS antenna to connect. I saw an install (maybe at the Kitfox factory during the fly in) where this antenna was mounted on a bracket attached to the panel support rod. Thought that was a pretty clean way so I bent up my version of the bracket and match drilled it to the support rod so that I can rivet it on when I'm ready. Happy New Year to all of you!!
Gary
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Eric Page
12-31-2022, 07:17 PM
That antenna bracket is a work of art. Well done, Gary!
bbs428
12-31-2022, 09:59 PM
Not bad for an Ol' swab. You're a cut above this old box puller, that's for sure. Good stuff!
Happy New year to you as well!
That antenna bracket is a work of art. Well done, Gary!
Not bad for an Ol' swab. You're a cut above this old box puller, that's for sure. Good stuff!
Happy New year to you as well!
Thanks guys. Definitely not a cut above anyone - just lucky enough to have had people with the real skill who took the time to teach me stuff and a box brake in the shop that makes metal bending like that possible. I'll whip out my HVLP sprayer and you all will get a great laugh!!
Gary
Have been pretty much focused on wiring in the panel/Garmin boxes and preparing for wiring in the firewall forward engine bay requirements this whole time. Still need to wire in the VPX power out connectors which is on the list for this coming week. Ran into one hiccup wiring in the Lane A/B LED lights. Left my soldering iron heat turned up a bit too hot when connecting the Lane A LED. It opened up the connection inside the LED itself so now that LED is inop. Heather is taking care of my mistake as we speak. Rookie mistake on my part. The LEDs themselves looked like they were ones that had the current resistor integrated so I asked Brandon if the factory was installing the resistors called out in the instructions. He said they weren't so obviously the current resistors are already there. The LED polarization also isn't marked directly or in any of the other ways LEDs are done (i.e. long/short leads). So the other question for Brandon was which lead was hot. For others reading this, the gold lead is hot and the silver lead is ground. Just for fun I hooked a 9V battery up to see how bright those lights were and they were definitely bright. So I went ahead and put the resistors into the circuit. It did dim them down somewhat but certainly will still be able to see them in direct sunlight.
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airlina
01-15-2023, 04:14 PM
Gary, if electric wiring can be pretty you win the beauty contest, very nice and super neat , great job. Bruce N199CL
Gary, if electric wiring can be pretty you win the beauty contest, very nice and super neat , great job. Bruce N199CL
Thanks Bruce. Appreciate the compliment but still have to smoke check it so the functional block check isn't in the bag just yet. Have been working on ringing out the connectors just to check and if I said so far they have been perfect - I would be lying. Literally found the GMU-11 connector (first one I did a long time ago when working on the wings) pinned in a mirror image. The good news is that it made me more inclined to check all the rest of the connectors.
G
bbs428
01-16-2023, 07:51 AM
That wiring looks mighty nice! I hope my result is half as good as that. I admire your attention to detail.
I'm going to use these pics to use as a guide and as a motivational challenge to spur me on. You set the bar high my friend!
Thanks for posting!
After seeing your Mustang and your paint job - my bar isn't even close. In the Corvette world we would call them "10 foot" cars. They look great as long as you're more than 10 feet away. But thanks for the kudos. Squids have to represent!!
Gary
Wiring is almost complete behind the panel so I thought I would move on to installing the boot cowl. My post in the General section let you know that fitting it took some time and my very cautious approach before I started drilling holes in the fuselage and firewall. After wrestling with the cowl a few times, I realized that I couldn't get a real good fit where the bottom of the cowl wraps under the fuselage. The area below the front of the door was pushing out on the cowl so I figured I needed to relieve that interference first and then fit the rest of the cowl. Worked out great and I was able to get a good line on where to cut the cowl forward of the door. Drilled all the holes in both the fuselage and the firewall. I am planning on screwing in the boot cowl to make it easier to remove for any future maintenance should I need to. It's an airplane - what can go wrong? I also fitted the side panels on the firewall and riveted them into place. Added a little Hysol in that joint just for fun.
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Started work on the two NACA side vents on the boot cowl for the cockpit air vents. Located them according to the directions but had to make my own cutout template since the one in the instructions must have been an older one that was not the same size as the ones in my kit. (The takeaway from this is to check your vent versus the template provided before you cut) Made the cutout on both sides, drilled and Hysol'd the vent into place. Let that dry for a day and then used the filler to smooth in the sides of the vents into the boot cowl and fill the Cleco holes. After it dried and I could sand it smooth, I primed the vents so they are now complete. While waiting for things to dry, I worked on a little more wiring (couple grounds I forgot to account for) and decided to mount the Parking Brake/Pedal Adjust placard. My locking tail wheel control was encroaching on the space that placard would normally take so I modified it a bit (gotta love a table saw) and mounted them as shown. Also as an aside, I appear to be filthy rich in Garmin CANBUS terminations (mine are already installed). Should anyone need one of these (or all of them), I am willing to share.
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Still waiting for a couple parts to proceed with the boot cowl/firewall so working on a few things that I either needed to get done or sub-assemblies for later. One of the major things to get done was finish up the brake lines to the calipers from the parking brake valve. Wanted a bit more of a robust brake line down the struts to the calipers than the stock Nyloflow lines. So I changed over to 3/16" stainless braided PFTE lines. Bought an extended length bolt for the caliper where I mounted the Adel clamp to account for the thickness of the clamp. Fitted in the seat pan to insure that the upper adapters from 3AN to nylon fittings didn't interfere with each other. Was pretty happy with the way they turned out.
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PapuaPilot
01-27-2023, 10:04 AM
That sure looks like a potential chaffing point where the hose goes through the steel airframe. You might consider using a rubber grommet.
jrevens
01-27-2023, 10:22 AM
Looks like he may be running the line through a piece of rubber hose there.
That sure looks like a potential chaffing point where the hose goes through the steel airframe. You might consider using a rubber grommet.
Looks like he may be running the line through a piece of rubber hose there.
Thanks for the inputs here. Both of you are correct - I think. The braided hose is sleeved on the pass through with thick shrink tubing which was my initial approach to the chaffing possibility. I went down yesterday and put the plane weight on an engine hoist, disconnected the shock on one of the struts and flexed it through what I think would be its range of motion. My original perception of "how it will work" was that if the hose wanted to move, the slack that would allow that would be the loop at the caliper and that's true for maybe 98% of the movement. But I did notice that it still pulled just a touch on the upper a bit. Not enough to make it move in and out of the fuselage but I could see it get tight and pull. Nice thing about making up your own brake lines- you can reuse the fittings as long as you put in a new 'olive' and I bought extras just in case. So I am going to put a pass through grommet up there at the top. I do remember that Dustin (Shadowrider) mentioned that when his brother's airplane was inspected by the DAR, he wanted a grommet up there. Easier to do it now when there isn't any fluid in the system yet than later when I would have to bleed it all. Again, thanks for the comments.
Gary
PapuaPilot
01-28-2023, 11:06 PM
Have you consider putting an AN fitting where it passes through? You could use a firewall type fitting and hook up the hoses that way.
I would hate to have a brake line chaff though at an inopportune moment and ruin your day.
Have you consider putting an AN fitting where it passes through? You could use a firewall type fitting and hook up the hoses that way.
I would hate to have a brake line chaff though at an inopportune moment and ruin your day.
Great minds think alike I guess. Ordered a couple bulkhead pass through fittings. Pretty easy to change how the adapters go from the 3AN to the nylon pipe. Looked like the best option and actually the path of least resistance (which in my experience isn't the case most times. Murphy likes to cause conflict I swear)
Thanks for the inputs.
Gary
Mounted the fuel filter assembly, filter capacitor and the motor mount getting ready to mount the engine. Reading some of the other members of the forum who had a real go of it getting the bolts between the mount and the fuselage to line up (including ratchet straps to pull things in), I was ready for a real 'fun' time of getting the mount on. Decided to do the mount to the fuselage first before the engine to the mount. Imagine my amazement when literally I got all five bolts on the mount attached. Even the 5/16th one at the bottom. They all lined up with only two needing a light love tap from a small hammer to get them through. Granted I used my small block Chevy experience of never torquing the bolts down till you had them all started a few threads but I think I lucked out. Today the wife and I went out and used an engine hoist to raise the engine up and bolted it to the mount. The only surprise for me was that I had to remove the muffler to get the upper bolts through. Once I did that, it was pretty smooth sailing. Used clamps to compress the rubber motor mounts so that I could start the nuts on the bolts but that was really the extent of it. I am including the FAA mandated selfie showing that I was really doing the work. Wearing my jacket cause I had to have the doors open to use the hoist and it's 31 degrees outside. At least I picked the warmest part of the day.
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bbs428
02-07-2023, 03:51 AM
Looks good Gary. I remember all the gyrations it took to coax my mounts in. Beautiful shop by the way!
That 22000uf cap is sure large. The one I got in my fwf kit is 1/4 of that size. Go figure.
Lots of fuel stuff going on there. You fuelie guys love to show off your plumbing! Lol. ;)
Thanks Brett. I am very fortunate when it comes to the shop and after reading some of the horror stories about the mount, figure I am fortunate there as well. I realize the issue of getting two separately welded fitments to line up is a tough nut to crack with heat, difference in material expansion and such so think my experience falls under the category of very fortunate. As for the cap -- size matters (payback for the plumbing crack Chief!) My FWF kit didn't have a cap but they make a difference to the junk (technical term) on the charging circuit.
Started populating the engine sub-systems like the ECU and fuse box. My first "Dang it" moment came when I looked at where Kitfox suggested mounting the ECU. Right where I had already mounted my battery backup on the left equipment rack. An alternate was to mount it on the right equipment rack but my VPX was mounted there. The solution was to bend up a mounting rack where I could place my ECU over the top of the battery back up. Got one bent up on the brake, fitted it on the left side and then got it painted. Once it has had time to dry, I'll get it installed. Installed the fuse box on the fire wall which went well. Wiring in the X3 power connector has some pretty healthy Molex pins you need to connect up and my first look at a tool to work Molex pins with 10 AWG wire was going to be a $500 bite. Nope. Luckily I found a set of jaws that work in my crimping tool and worked perfectly with the pins. So my X3 connector is all wired and connected. I installed the clipping diodes on my master and starter relays which will go a long way to extending the operational life of those relays. Have been wrestling with where to mount my ground forests. I wanted separate ones for avionics and the lights/shields/switches. Finally came to a decision, mounted them and then began populating the lights and shields grounds.
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bbs428
02-16-2023, 10:04 AM
Your ground forest looks mucho-mo-better than my ground forest! ;)
You need to teach a class on wiring how to's and do not's!
Nice work around on the ECU.
Looking good Gary!
alexM
02-16-2023, 10:37 AM
No kidding. Geek, you clearly need some more practice with wiring. I know just the project for you!
Your ground forest looks mucho-mo-better than my ground forest!
No kidding. Geek, you clearly need some more practice with wiring. I know just the project for you!
Thanks guys. Full disclosure however is that the rack for the ECU took some epic fails before I got it like I wanted it. Seems like every time I thought I had it, something else needed to be accommodated. You can see the major cables from the engine to the ECU coming out from underneath the rack in the last pic. My ground forest is complete with all the avionics now grounded. Guess the next thing to do is wire up the HIC connectors.
Can't imagine what project you might be thinking of Alex. But note that I do work for beer.
Gary
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LetMeFly
02-16-2023, 02:36 PM
Hi Gary,
I'm not up to where you are yet. Did the diodes for the solenoids come with the kit or are those after-market. If so, can you give a link?
Thanks,
Greg
Eric Page
02-16-2023, 04:15 PM
Any of the 1N54xx series, in a DO-27/DO-201AD case size will work fine. Big enough to be physically robust and not fiddly to install.
https://www.digikey.com/short/23wqchrd
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PCQD8YY/
LetMeFly
02-16-2023, 04:45 PM
Any of the 1N54xx series, in a DO-27/DO-201AD case size will work fine. Big enough to be physically robust and not fiddly to install.
https://www.digikey.com/short/23wqchrd
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PCQD8YY/
Thanks Eric!
Hi Gary,
I'm not up to where you are yet. Did the diodes for the solenoids come with the kit or are those after-market. If so, can you give a link?
Thanks,
Greg
Any of the 1N54xx series, in a DO-27/DO-201AD case size will work fine. Big enough to be physically robust and not fiddly to install.
https://www.digikey.com/short/23wqchrd
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PCQD8YY/
Greg - Diodes did not come with the kit and I think I read somewhere that Kitfox had agreed about using diodes on the master relay but not on the starter relay (if using the Rotax variant). Not sure why as I have always used them on everything I have ever had cause to use a relay on. Here's a link to a video of a Rotax relay with and without a diode. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3_bQV3HOH4 In the case of the 912is, you just need to be sure that the ground you use for the diode install is the one isolated from the airframe ground. What Eric said is spot on. I used the 1N5401. 100V rated and as Eric points out "physically robust". Some of the smaller diodes have thinner leads which makes me think they will break over time with vibration.
Gary
LetMeFly
02-16-2023, 05:49 PM
Greg - Diodes did not come with the kit and I think I read somewhere that Kitfox had agreed about using diodes on the master relay but not on the starter relay (if using the Rotax variant). Not sure why as I have always used them on everything I have ever had cause to use a relay on. Here's a link to a video of a Rotax relay with and without a diode. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3_bQV3HOH4 In the case of the 912is, you just need to be sure that the ground you use for the diode install is the one isolated from the airframe ground. What Eric said is spot on. I used the 1N5401. 100V rated and as Eric points out "physically robust". Some of the smaller diodes have thinner leads which makes me think they will break over time with vibration.
Gary
Thanks for the further info, Gary!
Eric Page
02-16-2023, 06:17 PM
Here's a link to a video of a Rotax relay with and without a diode. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3_bQV3HOH4
The spark you see without the diode is what's happening inside the switch that controls the starter relay. Over time it will erode the contacts and shorten the life of the switch. This is why the diode is a good idea.
In the case of the 912is, you just need to be sure that the ground you use for the diode install is the one isolated from the airframe ground.
No harm in doing it that way, and it's probably easiest given that it's mounted on the engine anyway, but I don't think it makes any difference. When you start an iS engine, you first close the Start Power switch, which ties the EMS and airframe grounds together (the Battery Backup switch does the same thing).
Edited to add... Took a minute to find this Homebuilt Help video on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvDuyM2e4gw
Edited again to add... Excellent article by Bob Nuckolls, complete with oscilloscope traces showing what happens with and without a diode: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/spikecatcher.pdf
Delta Whisky
02-16-2023, 07:24 PM
Eric, I need edjumicated. Why do they want the diode install isolated from engine ground?
Eric Page
02-16-2023, 07:52 PM
Yeah, I do too. Given how the Start Power switch works, it doesn't make much sense to me. Is that direction in the Rotax installation manual or is it advice from Kitfox?
Eric, I need edjumicated. Why do they want the diode install isolated from engine ground?
Yeah, I do too. Given how the Start Power switch works, it doesn't make much sense to me. Is that direction in the Rotax installation manual or is it advice from Kitfox?
In my case "they" is neither Kitfox or Rotax saying this. Just me looking at how I think the electrical system in the 'IS' versions of the Rotax are working. The 912is and the 915is have that 'system' (for lack of a better word) where the Lane A grounds are isolated from the airframe grounds. (Lane B is grounded to the airframe and A is not) If you look at the pic of the starter relay you can see an isolator behind the relay that totally insulates it from the firewall and that insulator is on both sides of the firewall. The engine electrical harness provides its own 'ground' connection to the relay from the Lane A side. I metered between that connection and the isolated 'grounds' on Lane A to verify that is was indeed connected there. I know that when the Start Power switch engages, it puts the airframe ground to the Lane A side which would put an airframe ground on the base of the relay as well. But when the switch is released, it goes back to an isolated system. Figured the safe bet was that if Rotax isolates the relay from the airframe, I'll connect the 'ground' side of the diode install to the insulated ground as well so that it's always at the same potential as the rest of the Lane A side. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused here.
Gary
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Eric Page
02-17-2023, 11:07 AM
No need to apologize! It's great to talk through these systems so all of us operating or planning to operate a 912/915iS correctly understand how they work.
Your explanation above sounds 100% correct to me. Thinking about it a bit more, I think you're right that the diode should be connected to Lane A ground. Under normal circumstances, the only time the diode will ever be called upon to do its job will be when either the Start Power or Battery Backup switch is closed (Lane A and Lane B grounds tied together). For a normal start, Start Power isn't released until well after Engine Start is released, so the diode's ground reference makes no difference.
However, if you accidentally release Start Power while Engine Start is still closed, the starter contactor will drop out because its coil will lose its ground with respect to the battery. Or, perhaps it would be more accurate to say that the Fuse Box, and the relay inside it that controls the starter contactor, will lose its ground with respect to the battery. In that case, the diode will do nothing if it's connected to Lane B ground, since it will no longer have any connection to the Lane A circuit that powered the contactor coil in the first place; it might as well not be there at all.
So, in order for the diode to protect the Fuse Box relay contacts under all conditions -- both normal starts and fumble-fingered pilots -- it must be connected to Lane A ground. Thoughts?
jiott
02-17-2023, 12:34 PM
Van's Aircraft has some nice diodes for both the master and start solenoids. They come with end connectors all installed and shrink tubed, ready to install. I used them on mine.
No need to apologize! It's great to talk through these systems so all of us operating or planning to operate a 912/915iS correctly understand how they work.
Your explanation above sounds 100% correct to me. Thinking about it a bit more, I think you're right that the diode should be connected to Lane A ground. Under normal circumstances, the only time the diode will ever be called upon to do its job will be when either the Start Power or Battery Backup switch is closed (Lane A and Lane B grounds tied together). For a normal start, Start Power isn't released until well after Engine Start is released, so the diode's ground reference makes no difference.
However, if you accidentally release Start Power while Engine Start is still closed, the starter contactor will drop out because its coil will lose its ground with respect to the battery. Or, perhaps it would be more accurate to say that the Fuse Box, and the relay inside it that controls the starter contactor, will lose its ground with respect to the battery. In that case, the diode will do nothing if it's connected to Lane B ground, since it will no longer have any connection to the Lane A circuit that powered the contactor coil in the first place; it might as well not be there at all.
So, in order for the diode to protect the Fuse Box relay contacts under all conditions -- both normal starts and fumble-fingered pilots -- it must be connected to Lane A ground. Thoughts?
You're correct in all the above and past (probably future) comments about the schematics that Rotax provides us are a bit lacking in areas so it's sometimes hard to capture the operational dynamics of a circuit. Full disclosure, I had not thought it out to the extent that you did above and both your's and Darrel's comments made me go back to look closer to see if I was providing bad gouge. My initial wiring hook up was me simply sticking with what an old school technician taught me many moons ago about doing mods to aircraft with a lot more onboard systems than our planes and keeping potentials the same. If two circuits were working at two different potentials/references, they're not broken, don't try to make them work together. The apology was more for any confusion my comment caused to anyone who may not have the electrical/electronic foundations that I sometimes take for granted. (Doesn't everyone know this stuff?) Glad you all spoke up and provided a clearer reason for the means of doing this one.
Cheers
Gary
Pushboy
02-17-2023, 05:02 PM
I try to follow along on build threads to learn -- I take delivery of my kit in a couple weeks, but when I read posts like the last several... I gotta be honest -- I think OMG... what have I done???
Maybe I'll go complete old school and have no electrical system at all.
I try to follow along on build threads to learn -- I take delivery of my kit in a couple weeks, but when I read posts like the last several... I gotta be honest -- I think OMG... what have I done???
Maybe I'll go complete old school and have no electrical system at all.
Dave the adventure is just beginning. Yeah there are a lot of things that you deal with and learn but that"s half the fun of it. The good news is that there are a bunch of really good people on the forum here that are more than happy to help you out with any questions or issues. Kitfox itself has been more than helpful for me when I have questions. Not sure how Brandon does it but he is always there to answer my dunderhead questions and such. You'll be fine and your kit will open up some really fun stuff and introduce you to some really great people!!
Looking forward to hearing about your progress once you get the kit!!
Gary
Kitfox Pilot
02-19-2023, 04:04 PM
[QUOTE=Pushboy; I gotta be honest -- I think OMG... what have I done???
Maybe I'll go complete old school and have no electrical system at all.[/QUOTE]
The above statement would definitely be easier to do but not nearly as nice to operate. Haha
Wiring was the biggest task for me. But it all came together in the end.
Now when I touch a location on the screen and hit the autopilot to take me there.......It was all worth it!
Delta Whisky
02-20-2023, 10:05 AM
I'll help - "The good news is that there are a bunch of really good people on the forum here that are more than happy to help you out with any questions or issues." translates as: The good news is that there are a bunch of really good people on the forum here that are more than happy to help you spend your money. :rolleyes:
I'll help - "The good news is that there are a bunch of really good people on the forum here that are more than happy to help you out with any questions or issues." translates as: The good news is that there are a bunch of really good people on the forum here that are more than happy to help you spend your money. :rolleyes:
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story!!!
The obligatory smoke check has been completed. No smoke.
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Kitfox Pilot
02-20-2023, 05:29 PM
That sure is a great feeling, isn't it? Looks great!
bbs428
02-20-2023, 07:59 PM
Another milestone completed. Looking good Gary!
That sure is a great feeling, isn't it? Looks great!
Another milestone completed. Looking good Gary!
Thanks. Yeah I was pretty happy about that don't you know. Only issue I have so far is the brick I have that looks like a GTR-200B. Doesn't even light up. Power and grounds are good so I guess it's off to the Garmin Xperts.
Gary
bbs428
02-21-2023, 04:49 AM
Your com that's DOA on arrival is a real disappointment.
You have to wonder if it was tested prior to shipment, or they just test "some" in that run and play the odds.
It's very concerning because these LRU's are not cheap by any means.
Good news at least yours will be covered by Garmin's warranty and after a quick test and check it will be up and running!
You'll just have to do the shipping fandango and hope they don't drop kick it when they see "Fragile Electronics" on the box!
Lot's of other stuff to do bud, so get after it. ;)
.......Good news at least yours will be covered by Garmin's warranty and after a quick test and check it will be up and running!.......
From your lips to God's ears my friend. Hope you're right.
Shadowrider
02-21-2023, 09:10 AM
Garmin is great to work with. Had a servo go bad and they sent a replacement out to swap out ours. Questions on wiring I would just call them, or stein to get answers. Also had an issue with firmware upgrade and garmin was helpful in rolling back the firmware.
Garmin is great to work with. Had a servo go bad and they sent a replacement out to swap out ours. Questions on wiring I would just call them, or stein to get answers. Also had an issue with firmware upgrade and garmin was helpful in rolling back the firmware.
Thanks Dustin. I tried the calling thing and had really poor luck there (over an hour on hold and then it just hung up). BUT I did send them an email and got a response this morning. They are going to do a swap on the unit. No issues with the wiring - checked correct pins and voltage/grounds present - all good. Having that VPX which will show you the current draw on each of the circuits was king. Powered the avionics up and the GTR circuit had zero current draw. Remembered your early on issue with one of the VPX circuits so I swapped the radio over to another known good working circuit. Same result on that one. My GAD460 firmware upgraded perfectly so was real happy with that for certain.
Gary
LetMeFly
02-22-2023, 09:04 PM
We now have Garmin support right on the forum! Check out this thread:
https://teamkitfox.com/Forums/threads/12451-Garmin-Support-Available-For-Team-Kitfox!
Shadowrider
02-22-2023, 10:05 PM
Our VPX have been solid. Love the amp draw and how well they play with garmin. Easier to trouble shoot. Also alternate way to turn on or off things. Switch fails, you can manually turn any circuit using g3x. You will love the vpx. Cory had a voltage regulator go out and it caused a voltage spike. VPX took the alternator offline and alerted him. He flew home on the backup alternator, no big deal.
Our VPX have been solid. Love the amp draw and how well they play with garmin. Easier to trouble shoot. Also alternate way to turn on or off things. Switch fails, you can manually turn any circuit using g3x. You will love the vpx. Cory had a voltage regulator go out and it caused a voltage spike. VPX took the alternator offline and alerted him. He flew home on the backup alternator, no big deal.
Yup I've been impressed with it so far. I really like the options it provides (like the alternative switching) and I am a man who likes his options. With the 912is the B alternator set up is a bit different than the 912ULS or 914. I'm going to pulse the VPX guys to see if they have any insight/opinions on how I might best control the B while having the external out there. Back when I started this whole fun filled trip, I read pretty much all the build logs to try and get a sense for what I was in for. Yours was a good source and still is. When I was trying to make an engine decision and balance my checkbook with my wants, you and I got to talk on the phone and not for just a quick call. Thanks Dustin for all the help you provide to all of us. It's a solid don't you know.
Gary
I very much appreciated my VPX when it advised me of a power draw problem on my landing light on the right wing. One call to AeroLEDs and procurement of a welders helmet was pretty much all I needed. Stare into the bulbs with the helmet on to verify equal intensity in the bulbs then simply cleaned all the contacts in the connector. Viola. Thanks VPX!
Whish it had been able to tell me, of my radiator problem that wasn't actually a problem, before I replaced it. Now I have a few $$$ sitting on a shelf waiting for a true radiator issue.
Kitfox Pilot
02-23-2023, 07:22 AM
[QUOTE
Whish it had been able to tell me, of my radiator problem that wasn't actually a problem, before I replaced it. Now I have a few $$$ sitting on a shelf waiting for a true radiator issue.[/QUOTE]
What was your issue if it wasn't the radiator?
While everything powered up correctly on my panel (other than the radio) there was an issue with the CANBUS on the Garmin G3x. Doing the system checks, sometimes the individual LRUs would start to log on correctly but then they would not. Only thing that would show as online was the primary flight display. Pretty much for the last week I have been troubleshooting the system and narrowed it down to the CANBUS high channel was sometimes shorting to ground. Normally this wouldn't be too big a deal to find. Just split the bus into two halves and see which side of the two was grounding. Split that section into two and so forth till you narrow it down. But in my case, the short was there, then it wasn't, then it was. Literally took every connector apart and checked the wiring for the short. About the time I would think I had it, the short would show up again. Took the complete bus apart three times and I guess the old adage of "Third time is a charm" was right on. On the third disassembly, I found one hair wire that had slipped outside the pin as I slid it on to crimp it. That one hair was moving around and intermittently shorting against the connector. Clipped the hair and the Garmin system logged on all its LRUs. Finished tying up all the wiring that I had taken apart in my trouble shooting, I installed the external alternator and the associated wiring to get the main electrical bus hooked up. I also installed the pitot system and AOA tubing that will run from the wing root to the panel. Last but certainly not least, I received my replacement radio from Garmin and it plugged right in to the panel and shows up correctly on the bus. To say that was an easy fix and that Garmin was right on it would be an understatement in my mind.
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Shadowrider
03-03-2023, 08:06 PM
Looks good! Always like a clean install!
bbs428
03-05-2023, 01:06 AM
Glad you found your problems and Garmin came through as well.
Looks like a keeper Gary, nice work!
Looks good! Always like a clean install!
Glad you found your problems and Garmin came through as well.
Looks like a keeper Gary, nice work!
Thanks guys. When you talk "clean install" both of your planes come to mind. There's a reason your build logs are used as a reference for the rest of us.
Brett - you find your radio gremlin?
Gary
I am at the dreaded fitting of the cowlings. I looked here on the forum for words of wisdom (and there certainly are some) but there were lots of places where I had questions. I think that my raw cowlings were actually in better shape than some I saw pics of here. I had heard that Kitfox had made some improvements on the molds so think mine were representative of that. But I still had questions and some things were just not obvious to the casual observer. So I am going to try and provide some pics and insight here. So what do you do first when you have questions? Easy - email Brandon for some insight. So the first four pics are ones that Brandon provided me on those first steps to get the front dialed in. Here's the verbiage that Brandon provided along with the pics. One thing of note, is that I did cut one of the tabs off and the other one is sanded down pretty thin. I will be replacing these with metal tabs and many have done before me. For those who have done this and have other/better ideas, please chime in. No pride in authorship here.
Brandon says, "don't try to draw a straight line from the side of the cowl across the middle. Those a will NOT line up. But you can straighten and level those areas. See picture with "step 1"....I start with this center section and get that area straight across and lining up the top and bottom cowl. See picture with "step 2". Align the front of the bottom cowl with the joggle line. See picture with "step 3". Note.... This cowling in the picture has already been trimmed down the whole edge. You'll want to notch the leading edge of the outer air inlets like the picture (just lower). Then trimming a little at a time on each of the 4 contacting points across the nose to ultimately get close to 3 5/8" as shown in the picture. Once you're there, you can put on the airplane and start final fitting to the boot cowl and determine your sides of the top cowl.
IF you trim too much, don't fret. You can patch things back up if needed. I take too much all the time and it's just a matter of adding back in."
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When I was done with mine, the 3 5/8" was 3 3/4" and in talking to Brandon later, he said his 3 5/8 number was a target and not an exact. I trimmed my front as Brandon had explained it and also enlarged the hole for the prop. I bolted the back plate for the spinner on to the prop extension (my prop uses a 2" extension) and placed a couple 1/4" pieces of wood behind it to set my spacing between the cowl and the spinner. Once you have the cowlings up and in place, the next thing you need to do is trim the rear of both upper and lower cowling so that they align with the joggled line on the boot cowl. Not having a good way of knowing where that line was, I placed 3"wide tape along the back of the boot cowling joggle. Put the upper and lower cowling back on and measured 2 1/4" from the back of the tape line up in to the cowling. That gave me a cut line that would let me get closer to the right fit. Cut both cowlings at that first cut line and then placed a 1" tape along the back of the boot cowl joggled line (same place the 3" tape was. This time when I mounted the cowling back up, I could see the back of the 1" tape as a reference. Using the back of the that tape as a reference, I put another line of 1" tape along the cowlings. That should accurately be where the joggled line of the boot cowl is and where the back of the upper and lower cowling should sit. Traced another line on the cowling for where the final cut should happen. When I actually did the cutting, I cut about 1/16" inside the line (towards the back of the cowl) so that I had some extra material there that let me sand it down to fit. So now I have the rear lines cut on my cowlings. Another thing I did was use "witness lines" so that I was certain that every time I took the cowlings off and then put them on again, I was sure they were in the same place as before. It is VERY easy for them to squirrel around. Will do the side cuts once I get them done. Sorry this was so long but hope it helps.
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jiott
03-07-2023, 09:28 PM
Gary, I think your post should be very helpful to those at this stage. I wish I had had such good instructions when I did mine 10 years ago. It was one of the most, if not THE most, difficult parts of the build and had me really spooked. Brandon's first sentence is key. Once you understand that, the rest is not nearly as bad as you think. Just go slow and easy. Regarding those tabs; they will never slide easily into place, but that's OK. Just thin them up some (both the tab and the mating upper cowl). When you assemble upper to lower cowl you just push the tab with your thumb and spring it into place; it will hold tight and be OK.
Part 2. I made the first rough cut on the lower cowl with my only concern being to not get too close to the line I drew. Used a 2x3" sanding block with 60 grit paper and sanded the rough cut down just to the line. Made a fitting and saw that it was actually just touching the edge of the joggle. You can just see the line in the pic of that fitting. I sanded it down to just remove that drawn line and it fit much better for me so called it good and moved on to the sides of the upper cowling. Used the same system as the lower where I placed a 1 inch tape along the edge of the joggle that the upper cowling was to mate to on the lower cowling. Put the upper cowling back on making sure that the witness lines were good and put a 1 inch tape along the upper cowling so that the bottom of that tape lined up with the bottom of the tape on the lower cowling (sorry - forgot to take a pic). Same as before, I rough cut up to the drawn line but not too close and used the block to sand just down to the lower edge of the line. With the 60 grit paper and the block it sands down pretty quickly. Put the upper cowling back on and checked the fit. As expected it was a bit too long so I sanded down to make the line go away and it was just the way I wanted it. (the last pic is upside down)
What I learned here is rule 1) Don't hurry - take your time. 2) If for some reason you look at what you have and you feel something doesn't seem right - listen to that. Fit it again and see if the feeling goes away or if there now appears to be an adjustment that will make it seem right. I've been asked how many times I fit the cowlings to the plane doing this; 27 times. Don't forget rule 1.
Gary
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Quick update - the cowling has been successfully fitted to the plane and cleco'd into place. Have started on some basic body work to fair in some of the mismatch between the upper and lower cowling. I do think the raw cowlings are better than they were based upon mine versus some of the earlier pics here on the forum. I had heard Kitfox was working to improve their molds some. There is always going to be some mismatch cause each plane frame is just different enough. I also ran the pitot tubing from the wing root area to the panel so now both my primary flight display (PFD) and the G5 (my back up) are hooked up.
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Hi Gary,
Your panel is almost identical to the one I'm trying to design. Could you send me a clear picture of yours? Also, which IPad and EFIS are you using? I'm hoping to fit the 10" GDU460 and the Ipad pro 10.5 along with a panel mount comm and autopilot but have been struggling to get them to fit.
Thanks,
Greg
(GNLSipes@hotmail.com)
The EFIS is the GDU 460 and the iPad is the mini. You might get a Pro in there but it will be very tight if it fits. The Guardian mount is about 5/8" bigger on all sides. The smaller pic here is before I populated it and will get big enough to read the switch labels
G
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PapuaPilot
03-13-2023, 10:49 AM
A word of caution about cutting out a permanent hole in the panel for iPads. I initially had an iPad mini, the it got to the point of no longer being supported by Apple. I originally installed an AirGizmo mount that cost $$. I ended up replacing the Mini with a 9.7 Pro (10"). It was hard to install the full size iPad in the same spot, fortunately it just barely fit. I saved some $ on the new mount and just bought a $15 case online. Then I cut off the case front and mounted the back to the instrument panel with 4 pop rivets. It's been working great for about 4 years. It was a super easy installation because I had not made a permanent hole in my panel.
Bottom line, leave room for expansion when you get a new device. Every new line of iPads are slightly different size than before.
jiott
03-13-2023, 11:21 AM
I am curious what the thinking is as to why you would permanently mount an iPad in your panel when you already have a full featured aircraft quality EFIS already mounted there? Maybe I am wrong, but doesn't the EFIS have nearly all the features you get in Foreflight? I can understand the desire for redundancy, but the iPad is not considered legal redundancy for IFR flying, and for VFR flying why not just have it somewhere in the airplane so it can be quickly accessed in case the EFIS malfunctions. Then you don't use up valuable panel space and risk the frequent obsolescence of the iPad. So many people are doing this that I must be missing something and would like to be informed.
PapuaPilot
03-13-2023, 12:04 PM
Great question Jim. An iPad or equivalent is the least expensive way to have a backup. Personally I only do VFR flying and don't need a second "legal" screen for IFR redundancy, so an iPad made sense.
I decided to put the iPad on my panel because there was plenty of space for it. This keeps it out of the sun, allows for a cooling blast tube, keeps it off my lap/seat, and keeps the charging cable out of the way. In the event of an electrical or LRU failure an iPad duplicates almost everything on the G3X except the engine instruments. With my Garmin Pilot subscription I know the iPad will always have current charts, etc. For any panel/screen you need to do some extra steps to update them via an SD card, etc. At times my G3X doesn't have current charts, but the iPad does.
Shadowrider
03-13-2023, 12:59 PM
I have a G3X and Ipad and love the ipad. As a professional pilot, the ipad is required to do my job. I came so accustomed to the ipad, and how easy it is to use that I wanted one in my aircraft. Easier to create flightplans or fly to way points in foreflight and then send it to the panel, G3X, via bluetooth. Way easier to intercept weather and weather plan. Easier to see and avoid traffic on the ipad. Music is loaded on the ipad to listen with passengers through intercom. Movies loaded on ipad for long cross countries. The G3x is awesome but it only has so much limited real-estate.
I guess most of the answers to Jim's question have been provided. I like having the iPad there to display ADSB-In traffic. If I head west over the Cascades I have to deal with Seattle area and it gets pretty hectic some times. Then there is the fact that if I were to go cross county in the speed demon that the STi is, I can load a movie on to the iPad and have inflight entertainment!! (Ok. Kidding on that last one.)
Gary
PapuaPilot
03-13-2023, 08:38 PM
I like having the iPad there to display ADSB-In traffic.
Gary
Ditto, ADSB traffic is normally on one half of my iPad screen.
jiott
03-14-2023, 12:58 PM
My ADS-B IN, traffic and weather shows up on my Skyview EFIS.
Thanks for the comments; the consensus seems to be the iPad is a great and inexpensive backup, which makes sense to me. As far as mounting it in the panel, it seems to be just a convenience thing if you have space there for it. Personally I prefer to use that space for a nice glovebox.
Been working getting the interface between the upper and lower cowlings faired in. Fabricated the brackets for installing the radiator. Instructions said to hot glue or strap tape the radiator into position on the lower cowling but that didn't work for me. The strap tape just kept pulling away from the fiberglass and let the radiator move out of position. So I taped a piece of plywood across the cowling to keep the radiator in its fore/aft position and spacers to provide the correct height off the cowling. That worked perfectly. Mounted the radiator and then fabricated the third support bracket. Got that all installed and verified that both the radiator did not touch the cowling and it was still in the proper position to mount the naca duct. Got the naca duct positioned, drilled/cleco'd the guide holes, did the rough cut out and finally Hysol'd the duct into the cowling. Now it's on to body working the duct and installing the oil cooler.
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alexM
03-22-2023, 10:22 AM
Finally, something to slow you down.
Yeah and you having the month to play. I am really slow when it comes to working fiberglass so here's your chance mate. Looks like your making good progress on yours Alex
G
bbs428
03-23-2023, 09:00 PM
Looks like you might make a good body shop weenie yet!
Mud on - Sand off...repeat!
Looking good Gary!
Finished fairing in the naca duct on the lower cowl and gave it a coat of primer. Fabricated the brackets to mount the oil cooler to the radiator and then mounted the whole assembly on to the plane. Finally achieved one of the first rites of passage where I took the left wing off of the rotisserie (more room in the shop - yahoo!!), pulled the wiring for the magnetometer, OAT, pitot heat, landing lights, nav lights and pitot system tubing through the wing. Secured the wiring at the wing tip with Adel clamps and then consolidated all the wiring in the left wing into a single connector so I have a wing wiring disconnect should I need to remove the wing at a later time.
With the help of my wing crew, I attached the port wing so that I could get a bunch of stuff dialed in. My Magnetometer, OAT, Nav/landing lites and the heated pitot tube are all on that wing. I installed a wing root electrical disconnect connector there so if/when I need to take the wing off, I can do it without cutting wires. Happy to report that all those parts worked as advertised and the G3X was all green checks except for the Rotax FADEC. Started troubleshooting what the problem was with that interface and finally found it: me. Didn't quite understand how the interface worked between the Start Power switch and the Lanes. Once I got that straight, Lane A wasn't responsive or at least the light wasn't working. Turns out Lane A was fine (G3X made that easy to determine once I knew what to look for), I had just wired the LED backwards. Got that all dialed in now. Decided it was time to start work on the oil access door on the upper cowling. Made a pattern for the inside dimensions of the opening. Taped that to the rough door and made sure that the door followed the contour of the cowl. Sprayed a little black paint on the door with the pattern attached so I now had a shape to cut to. Cut out the door opening on the cowl and did the final fitting of the door to the opening. Still have to make the cutout for the hinge.
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bbs428
04-02-2023, 01:43 AM
Glad you found the issue with your engine Gary. I knew it wouldn't set you back to long!
Funny how we know so much about trons and we can still get some things wrong! It's the same issue as I have... ME! Lol.
To be fair, as we get used to the software and work through the various squawks, the more it all makes sense, and it is getting easier to find the problem without a call to the Garmin/Rotax tech wizards.
This forum continues to be a wealth of information, and the members are real lifesavers when we are hitting the wall they have already climbed over.
Doing some small stuff while awaiting parts and getting some 'honey do' off my list. Finished off the oil level access door on the upper cowling with the Dzus fasteners. Decided that I wanted to improve the seal around the cooling radiators so I added a seal strip around them. (Sorry pic #3 is upside down) I have read that some people put a wooden spacer around the flaperon control rod to protect it should the fiberglass seat collapse. Haven't actually heard of this happening but thought it would be a good insurance step so I made and installed a couple spacers.
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bbs428
04-11-2023, 02:06 AM
Seals and oil door look great Gary. The seals are something I haven't thought about tbh.
I still have to add my wooden spacers, thanks for the reminder!
alexM
04-11-2023, 08:25 AM
I've read about some seat collapse scenarios. Several things might have contributed to those stories. On the series 5 the seat pan is secured to the cross tubes (top and bottom) with slots and zip ties, which can stretch/break over time. Maybe you trim off too much along those edges trying to make it look nice. Maybe the flight crew is more graviationally challenged than a standard FAA 170 lb pilot.
Those storage compartments under the seat used to be optional. They not only stiffen up the seat pan, the help support the pan if it should flex further than it is supposed to.
Now the fuselage comes with those steel tabs on the top/bottom tubes, and you use mechanical fasteners. Don't skip out on the fasteners and inspect your seat pan occasionally to make sure cracks aren't forming between the fastener holes and the edge of the seat pan. The extra blocking probably isn't required but it certainly doesn't hurt.
airlina
04-11-2023, 02:38 PM
Back in the olden days when I was building my Series 5 , there where several reports of seat pan failures and a few wrecks , and that got my attention in a hurry. I had a hard time imagining how the Skystar folks thought zipties where a good idea to hold such a critical component in place (or not). I took the belt and suspenders approach and used high quality rubber cushioned SS hose clamps in place of the zips, added aditional layers of reinforcing fiberglass in the mount critical areas and used old seat belts under the seatpan and mounted to the front and back support tubes as a last save. Trust me , i've tested the integrity of my work over the years with some dynamic arrivals and all is good 1000 hrs later. Bruce N199CL
.......... Maybe the flight crew is more graviationally challenged than a standard FAA 170 lb pilot.
..........Trust me , i've tested the integrity of my work over the years with some dynamic arrivals and all is good 1000 hrs later. Bruce N199CL
So first off - you two are guilty of some classic quotes. I got a good chuckle out of both of these. Thanks. As for the braces, I too had read some stories about the seat pan but think when I had read them, wasn't smart enough (read - the start of my 18 month waiting period after ordering my kit) to know the difference between a 4, 5 or 7. Probably still can't quote confidently about the differences. But I did make notes back then on things I wanted to make sure I did with mine and those braces were there.
Gary
alexM
04-11-2023, 07:26 PM
You know we all expect you to paint those to perfectly match the fuselage tubing, right? Maybe some superfill to smooth them out?
Surely you wouldn't leave those hideous bare wood blocks there after the whole world has seen them.
I'll get a man right on it. heh heh I expect another video from you here shortly showing all your progress Alex!!! You should be all rested after your vacation!
You know we all expect you to paint those to perfectly match the fuselage tubing, right?...........
Put in the spacers I needed between the boot cowl and the foot wells of the firewall. Should allow the Dzus fasteners to pull the cowl up nice and tight. And just for you Alex, I painted them (after giving them a solid coat of lacquer!!
Gary
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alexM
04-14-2023, 11:03 AM
We expect nothing less from you Gary. Keep it up.
Installed the Dzus fasteners between the upper and lower cowling as well as the ones between the upper and boot cowls. Due to the fit between the lower cowling, the boot cowling and the firewall foot wells, I needed to order some longer fasteners so am awaiting parts on that. I also cut the access hole for the exhaust pipe stinger and have the desired 1/2 inch clearance around it. Finished plumbing in the "Thermobob" thermostat into my cooling with a 180 degree thermostat installed. Should help get my engine temps up when warming up and keeping them stable when flying in colder weather.
P Johnson
04-22-2023, 04:34 AM
Put in the spacers I needed between the boot cowl and the foot wells of the firewall. Should allow the Dzus fasteners to pull the cowl up nice and tight. And just for you Alex, I painted them (after giving them a solid coat of lacquer!!
Gary
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Gary,
I have fitted the end caps on the inside (not riveted yet) as apposed to yours on the firewall side (builders choice) I also have a gap between the boot cowl and the end plates, I am considering fitting some kind of spacer in the same location as yours but I have also considered a piece of 1/8" x 1" riveted to the rear outward edge of the end cap as mine bow and this would hold the edge straight but I don't want the extra weight or have to use longer fasteners, so maybe making new end caps and move them out over so as to take up the gap maybe the best choice as I found the instructions in this area a little vague, what do you think? Are you making your boot cowl removable and if so how do you plan on sealing the fire wall?
Paul.
Gary,
I have fitted the end caps on the inside (not riveted yet) as apposed to yours on the firewall side (builders choice) I also have a gap between the boot cowl and the end plates, I am considering fitting some kind of spacer in the same location as yours but I have also considered a piece of 1/8" x 1" riveted to the rear outward edge of the end cap as mine bow and this would hold the edge straight but I don't want the extra weight or have to use longer fasteners, so maybe making new end caps and move them out over so as to take up the gap maybe the best choice as I found the instructions in this area a little vague, what do you think? Are you making your boot cowl removable and if so how do you plan on sealing the fire wall?
Paul.
Think you have hit pretty much the crux of the issues with having a removable boot cowl; spacers/fasteners and firewall sealing. The spacers I put in did stiffen the sides of the boot cowl and yeah, I did have to order longer parts for the fasteners from Skybolt. But think they were like $20US and had them in three days (Might take a touch longer to England but they were still pretty fast). I will admit that I am not a major fanatic about that kind of weight add but in the same breath have laughingly thought maybe I might name my plane "Miss Piggy" cause I am not that weight watcher guy. (I can lose 5lbs of my own weight pretty easy so a few ounces just doesn't ring my bell). Moving the end caps is certainly one option you can do for certain but think the cost of the stainless sheet would be more than the fasteners.
As for sealing the firewall - I will admit I haven't made that decision to tell the truth. I have done some research just to have options to mull over but since I am not to the point of actually sealing the firewall up, I'm still mulling. None of the options I have seen can I vouch for and was pretty much planning on doing some tests. They start with sealing it 'normally' and then cutting through the sealant between the firewall and cowl with a guitar string if the boot needs to come off (suggest the G string since it's the smallest). There was one suggesting the use of clear packing tape on the boot cowl and then sealing it normally so if you remove the cowl, the tape will separate from the cowl and the sealant stays in place on the firewall (maybe - wasn't sure about this to tell the truth). Along those lines there were a couple I saw that thought some sort of releasing agent (like a molding release) would be the ticket (my question here would be how the release reacts with the sealant). I've got some fiberglass and some metal so my plan (if you want to call it that) is to try a few of these and see which one I like best or even works. Sorry I can't give you a more conclusive answer on this one cause I just don't have it yet. Let us all know what you do cause it will help make decisions.
Cheers
Gary
alexM
04-22-2023, 08:15 AM
Pretty sure an E string is smaller than a G.
Eric Page
04-22-2023, 09:58 AM
Gary, we've all enjoyed your well-documented build but please don't post photos of your G string. :rolleyes:
Pretty sure an E string is smaller than a G.
Not on a 12 string Alex. The octave G is the small one. (But then of course I didn't spec a 12 string did I?)
Gary, we've all enjoyed your well-documented build but please don't post photos of your G string. :rolleyes:
What? You're a SNAG? (Sensitive New Age Guy) Can't do that Eric. You'll just have to live with the image.
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alexM
04-22-2023, 06:59 PM
That explains it. I've only spent a few minutes playing a 12 string and never stopped to think of the theory behind the "other" set of strings involved.
Carry on!
Today was brake bleeding day for me. My past motorhead life left me with a pressure bleeder for brakes and today was just another day of being happy I had it. Makes life really easy when bleeding. While I did cover my brake lines with shielding, I left small sections at the fittings uncovered so I had an easy look at the hose and fitting. If there was a leak, I could see it easily rather than have it run down the webbing and exit somewhere lower. Also one of the biggest reasons my build is going to have a removable boot cowl is not only to let me access the back of the panel for troubleshooting but also to provide an easy access to the brake manifold on the inside of the firewall. Being able to see the lines going in made it really easy to assess if I still had air in the lines when bleeding. The one pic is of the air coming out the right brake line when I started. It also lets me inspect the brake cylinders down in the footwells easily. Not only to inspect for leaks but also access to repair a leak should I have one.
I know I have read that some think that some of Kitfox's instructions are lacking in some areas and will admit to having some thoughts along those lines. But one thing I have learned after getting this far in the buld is that where some items may be construed as vague might really be a matter of that part doesn't require exacting instructions and however you do it will be fine. In this case, I started doing my brake bleed yesterday and the #$%*$###!! tube kept popping off the nipple on the caliper. The pressure bleeder is the bomb but a downside is that when the tube pops off, the fluid comes out under pressure and fast. So I went back and re-read the instructions and in this case, Brandon and crew said use 1/8" tubing to connect to the nipple. I had some 3/16" laying around and figured "Good enough". It wasn't. The instructions specifically told me 1/8" and this morning my trip to the local hardware store got me the right stuff. Came home, tied it into the pressure bleeder and was literally done bleeding in an hour and half. Nice solid pedals, no air in the sight areas of the lines anywhere. No tube popping off the bleeder.
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alexM
04-27-2023, 03:36 PM
I have one of those Motiv bleeders. They're amazing
bbs428
04-29-2023, 12:55 AM
Nice system Gary. The proper tool makes short work of any task!
I have had a mityvac vacuum pump kit for a long time. It works ok but it's slow, so I used a big syringe as well to force the air out.
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Never liked the air filter directly connected to the engine taking in hot air inside the cowling. Against all my motorhead experience. When Kitfox introduced the 915is into its stable of engines, they came up with an external intake system to route outside air into the engine. Saw that and ordered one from Kitfox since the 912is uses the same intake system. Heather got it sent out and I now have it installed. Much better in my mind than the inside cowling air and it gives the air sensor for the Rotax injection a great place to be mounted (backside of the air box). (And yes Alex, I painted the box. As you probably well know, aluminum and carbon fiber do NOT get along well. So between the aluminum parts and the box itself, I should be OK)
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Installed the fuel gauge into the left wing and finished up connecting the fuel lines so the left wing is now plumbed. Was real happy to get my intake installed on the lower cowling and thought it was a thing of beauty. Or not. I screwed up. The instructions say to check the fit before mounting the intake to the cowling and while I did make sure the cowling fit with the intake taped at the spot outlined in the manual, I guess I didn't really take a good look other than to see that it fit. While doing something else, I looked down and was shocked to see that the intake was literally a little less than a quarter inch from the valve cover of the engine. I am certain that engine will flex the motor mounts a bit (Kitfox calls for a half inch of clearance between the exhaust pipe and the cowling due to that). The intake needed to be mounted about 1 inch back from where the instructions indicated. I had to modify my intake with a bit of a cutout to give me my half inch of clearance. The takeaway here is when you check for clearances, do a complete check cause just because it fits doesn't mean it's going to work. The weather started warming up so I thought I would get a little painting done before pollen and bugs make painting outside totally impossible. Repurposed the wing rotisserie to support the wing strut while painting.
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rv9ralph
05-08-2023, 08:49 PM
I am certain that engine will flex the motor mounts a bit (Kitfox calls for a half inch of clearance between the exhaust pipe and the cowling due to that)
That is a concern Gary. However, the muffler stinger is further from the center of rotation than the valve cover, reducing the amount of clearance needed.
I love your glass work. HAHAHA!!!
But seriously. Your progress looks great. Keep plugging away.
bbs428
05-08-2023, 08:56 PM
Nice catch Gary. These things happen and it's how you deal with it that counts. Looks 1st rate.
Nice strut rotisserie! ;)
..........I love your glass work. HAHAHA!!!..........
THE only thing I hate more than working with fiberglass is cutting carbon fiber. It's just nasty in my book. I formed a piece of aluminum (with multiple coats of paint to protect it from the carbon fiber) to Hysol into place just cause I hate it so. WhenI was done, thought I might have gotten a Coke can and used that in there instead but that would have been just a hair light in gauge. It doesn't look bad from the outside looking in but certainly was unhappy with myself for such a dunderhead move.
Gary
rv9ralph
05-09-2023, 08:19 PM
That was my observation... and the motivation of posting after seeing the Hysol, that modification will not be seen on the exterior is a good thing ... and I agree with the unpleasantness of working with composite. However, there is no way to replicate the results with aluminum. (My skills with an English wheel are non existent)
I am currently working on the cabin vents NACA ducts. Cowl is coming soon.
So true. The people I have met with skills on the 'Wheel' are few and far between. If I used fingers to count I would have many left over. Have fun with those vents. They are just getting you ready for the lower cowling and you too will have the opportunity to put in that intake and avoid my mistake. Glad you and Victor are making progress.
Gary
Finished up painting the flaperons this morning. Pretty happy with the way they came out given that I am painting outside. Trying to get painting done before the pollen starts falling from the pine trees. Think I might have only a couple more days and then I'll have to hold short for a bit on paint. While waiting for flash coats and final coats to dry, I did the safety wire on the exhaust springs so that when (not if from what I understand) they break, they don't just fall out the back of the cowling and on to the runway/taxiway or even drop them while flying. Ran a couple beads of high temp RTV on all the springs as well as I understand this dampens the vibration of the springs and hopefully promotes a little longer life. Also finished off the outside of the intake Naca so that debacle is complete now.
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bbs428
05-16-2023, 12:59 AM
"While waiting for flash coats and final coats to dry, I did the safety wire on the exhaust springs so that when (not if from what I understand) they break, they don't just fall out the back of the cowling and on to the runway/taxiway or even drop them while flying. Ran a couple beads of high temp RTV on all the springs as well as I understand this dampens the vibration of the springs and hopefully promotes a little longer life."
Glad to see your painting skills coming online and with no painting booth! Some of us special cases just have to tempt fate!
I remember something about exhaust springs from a post long ago and I have overlooked it.
Sounds like the prudent thing to do Gary, Thanks!
Been here for years. How I have not come across that safety wire fix is beyond me. Ive lost two springs in the past 4 years. One onto the ground, one other?
jiott
05-16-2023, 09:03 AM
I thought the safety wire and silicone were in the build manual; maybe the Rotax installation manual. I did it to mine and have only had one spring break (caught by the safety wire) in 1500 hours. Have replaced springs twice when the hooks started looking quite worn.
I think I actually learned this on the Rotax Owners website or God forbid - You Tube. But seemed like a good idea and made sense.
G
jrevens
05-16-2023, 04:50 PM
Been here for years. How I have not come across that safety wire fix is beyond me. Ive lost two springs in the past 4 years. One onto the ground, one other?
I haven’t had any broken springs yet. I think that there’s a possibility that along with vibration, corrosion (rust) may play a roll in spring breakage also. I’ve noticed a couple of my springs were getting a little rusty, and I live in a very dry environment. You can see it in the picture. Corrosion probably creates many tiny pits/stress risers. My springs are bare metal, and after I discovered the rust I coated them with rust-converting red oxide primer, with a small brush. I think the springs should be made from S.S., or plated.
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I recall the recommendation for the silicone, which I had done from the start. My original springs got rusty so I bought stainless steel ones to replace these as they fail. I need to add the safety wire.
Note that the safety wire isn't pulled tight between the loops. It's just there to catch the 'fallout' should they fail. I guess there were some who pulled it tight and it caused issues with wearing in the loops.
Gary
jiott
05-17-2023, 09:48 AM
Eddie, Where did you get SS exhaust springs?
Sorry for the delay Jim
Part# 08-07632 (tel:08-07632) Aircraft Spruce. GPL Stainless Steel spring for 912.
Av8r_Sed
05-22-2023, 07:41 PM
I note that JBM industries carries SS exhaust springs.
http://jbmindustries.com/ROTAX.htm
jiott
05-23-2023, 10:39 AM
Thanks Eddie and Paul.
Got the rear cross piece installed on the crossover and then started in on fitting the windscreen. Must have installed both the windscreen and boot cowl half a dozen times but the fitting is finally done. I left a quarter inch over lap on the windscreen and butt rib. Got the edges all polished and dialed in. On to actually getting it permanently attached.
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bbs428
05-25-2023, 12:27 AM
It sure is a lot of work involved in getting the windscreen positioned correctly.
Looks Good Gary!
Have started working up the cowlings getting them sanded and such for final paint after primer. Got the upper cowling, boot cowl and wing tips painted now with the final color. The wing tips still have some trim to paint but all in all, pretty happy with the way these first attempts came out. Especially after my initial experience with shooting primer on the wing tips and all the runs I had to sand out and re-prime. Got some good tips from Brett (bbs428) on some of the finer points of the process which was a real help. Living here in the mountains with the pine trees means that we have quite the pollen content in the air during the day. Mix that with the cottonwoods doing their thing makes painting outside a bit of a pain. Best to do it early in the morning (before the sun sets off the trees again) and then move the wet pieces into the shop. The down side is that doing stuff in the shop is kind of limiting because you don't want to raise the dust level and have it stick to the wet paint. Very happy with the decision to go with the Oratex so I am not facing having to paint the whole plane........ Lots of waiting for stuff to dry but I did manage to get my hose clamps all safety wired so that's done. More sanding to get done on the lower cowl but it's getting there so that will probably be the next thing to shoot.
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I have painted the horiz stab covers, the spinner and the lower boot cowl now. The good news is that I am about done with all but some of the light trim when it comes to paint. Part of the issue I have had is painting outdoors and getting the parts moved back into the shop before it heats up outside and the trees start sending pollen and such to attack my fresh paint. It makes what I can do in the shop a bit limited so I don't raise any dust from sanding, drilling or whatnot. While waiting for paint to dry (which is what I was thinking about naming this log), I fit the landing light lens on to both of the wing tips. When I did the landing light mounts and the work on the wing tips, I put in metal mounting plates behind the fiberglass and built the wiring harnesses which means that my tips are ready to mount. I also hooked up the Sony jack that lets me hook up the GoPro to the aircraft audio. Tested that out and it's good to go. Gotta like Garmin making it so easy to get that in.
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alexM
06-08-2023, 07:55 PM
I have no luck painting pretty things outside. As soon as I'm done spraying, flies appear out of nowhere and procreate in my wet paint.
Yeah we have our quota of kamakazi bugs here. If I'm not started painting by 0700 then I don't. It's probably a little cooler than optimum for painting but so far I've been lucky I guess. The shop is a little warmer so once I finish, the part goes into the shop mostly for the pollen and stuff but I beat the bugs out too.
Keeping busy up North my friend?
Geek
Started fitting the turtle deck. Got the cut outs for the cross member done and the upper edge fit into its slot under the rear of the windscreen. Anyone reading this that is going to install the hinge option with their deck, I would really recommend finding Harlan Payne's You Tube #42 where he shows installing his. Harlan did not follow the directions as they were laid out in the book (don't mistake this comment to say he did it wrong - he didn't). Instead he used some very common sense changes to the order of things and had some 'take it to the bank' observations. An example would be not drilling or setting up the lower section of Dzus fasteners before cutting and fitting the hinge. Just install the upper two fasteners on each side to lock the deck in place but leave wiggle room for fitting the lower half after you cut the hinge. I installed the Dzus fastener sockets on the upper section just as Harlan suggested and am now ready to locate my holes for the flapperon control rods. He also had some solid insight on cutting the side cuts at the hinge to keep things from binding up. Made this job a lot easier for me for certain. Thanks Harlan - really appreciate the time and effort you took with those videos.
bbs428
06-15-2023, 05:11 AM
Paint is turning out great Gary. Do I detect a hint of metal flake in it?
Turtledeck is shaping up nicely. Harlan's videos were a big help to me as well.
Paint is turning out great Gary. Do I detect a hint of metal flake in it?
Turtledeck is shaping up nicely. Harlan's videos were a big help to me as well.
Yeah a small light metal flake. Let's face it, silver without the metal flake is really gray and Lord knows you and I have had our share of gray.
Gary
alexM
06-15-2023, 07:58 PM
It should be at least 3 knots faster with the metal flake.
Used the broom stick method to locate the hole for the flaperon shaft through the turtle deck. Went ahead and riveted one side of the flaperon brackets to the wing. Will do the other side of the bracket when I actually hang the flaperons. Fabricated brackets to mount taxi lights to the cabane bracket and ran the wiring down there on each side. Am awaiting some longer AN5 bolts to attach the brackets. Painted the ends of the wing tips in trim, installed the landing lights and the navigation lights. Got my helpers to assist and got the right wing attached to the fuselage. Hopefully I won't be taking it off again.
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alexM
06-19-2023, 06:46 PM
I'm going to have to learn about this broomstick trick.
Does the STI wing use AN5 bolts on the flaperon brackets? I was sure my wings used AN3 there, but it's been a while since I did the initial fit up and drilled the ribs for the brackets.
I'm going to have to learn about this broomstick trick.
Does the STI wing use AN5 bolts on the flaperon brackets? I was sure my wings used AN3 there, but it's been a while since I did the initial fit up and drilled the ribs for the brackets.
You take the two flaperon hinges that are used on the flaperon control horn assembly (before you do all the riveting and lock them in) and mount them on rib #1 and #3 brackets. Slide a broom stick through them and where they touch the turtle deck locates the site of the hole. Not my idea but it's sure better than any other way I saw. The flaperon bracket bolts are indeed AN3. I need the AN5 bolts for the taxi light bracket that I am attaching to the landing gear assembly. Pics to follow when I get the bolts.
Assembled and installed the horizontal stab and elevator on to the fuselage. Connected the trim motor scissors and tested it through the full range of nose up/nose down with no issues. Installed and riveted one side of the flaperon hinges on both wings. I'll do the other side once I install the flaperons themselves just to be sure they are all aligned (they were when I test fit them last year but you never know). Started looking closer at the glare shield install. This included a look at Harlan's video on his install and saw where he suggested making the clips a little longer making it easier to get the glare shield to engage them. I had already built the clips to the specs in the manual but decided that making them a little longer made some sense. So I fabricated them to be a quarter inch longer after the bend.
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This one's for you Alex as my explanation of the hinge pivot I was using to hold the broom handle wasn't real clear.
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alexM
06-22-2023, 08:19 PM
^Oh I understood your description. Friggin genius idea.
Am I the only builder installing the stab trim sensor? I'm curious if having it installed makes installation of the stab and elevator more difficult (I suspect it does).
Jason Murphy
06-23-2023, 08:18 PM
^Oh I understood your description. Friggin genius idea.
Am I the only builder installing the stab trim sensor? I'm curious if having it installed makes installation of the stab and elevator more difficult (I suspect it does).
I have one in my parts cabinet… I have yet to install it
Eric Page
06-24-2023, 08:06 AM
Same here. Sensor is on the shelf and the actuator tab is installed on the horizontal stab, but that's it so far.
After fitting the turtle deck as a single piece on the fuselage and locating the flaperon feed thru holes, I marked out the hinge location and made the required cuts. Sanded the turtle deck edges smooth so there are no sharp edges anywhere on the deck. I had read that actually inserting the turtle deck into the hinge was a royal pain and as promised, it started out that way. My father's words came to me while fighting with the hinge; "A man cannot have enough clamps." So I laid two clamps (in the pic) down on the flat surface lengthwise under the turtle deck and then clamped a couple 2x4s over the top. The 2x4s were not clamped to the turtle deck anywhere but set at a level so that the deck could slide underneath them but kept the deck from flexing up and the hinge from buckling. Slowly added pressure to squeeze the deck with the lower clamps and the deck is now inserted into the hinge all the way.
Rolled the plane out of the shop, unfolded the wings and installed the flaperons. I had fitted these last winter when I first built them up so the installation had no surprises. Finished riveting the flaperon wing brackets to the wing. I installed the firewall feed through a couple days ago and filled it off with high temp RTV to seal it. The RTV set up so I installed the clenching ring and the hose clamp so that is complete.
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Got the glare shield fitted in between the panel and the boot cowl/windshield. Looking at the possibility of putting in a stiffener in the middle laterally, between the panel and the brace tubes. There is a bit of 'oil canning' when I have it screwed down and think that might alleviate that. Finished up the turtle deck after getting the hinge installed. The plans call for a single aluminum brace across the deck at the hinge and I thought that a brace on each side of the hinge had some merit so I made another one and installed two braces. Fit the deck to the fuselage and installed all the Dzus fasteners. Last but not least I installed the "whisker' mod on the trim access panels. Think we have Jim Ott to thank for this one and think it will help keep that area back there a lot cleaner. Thanks Jim.
G
Mtkitfox
07-02-2023, 08:10 AM
Gary,
Where did you get the “whiskers” from?
Brad
Gary,
Where did you get the “whiskers” from?
Brad
Brad - McMaster Carr. Here's a link to Jim's original post where he provided part numbers and all.
Gary
https://teamkitfox.com/Forums/threads/8595-Stabilizer-Trim-Slot-Closeout
Kitfox Pilot
07-02-2023, 03:27 PM
[QUOTE=Geek;108771]After fitting the turtle deck as a single piece on the fuselage and locating the flaperon feed thru holes, I marked out the hinge location and made the required cuts. Sanded the turtle deck edges smooth so there are no sharp edges anywhere on the deck. I had read that actually inserting the turtle deck into the hinge was a royal pain and as promised, it started out that way. My father's words came to me while fighting with the hinge; "A man cannot have enough clamps." So I laid two clamps (in the pic) down on the flat surface lengthwise under the turtle deck and then clamped a couple 2x4s over the top. The 2x4s were not clamped to the turtle deck anywhere but set at a level so that the deck could slide underneath them but kept the deck from flexing up and the hinge from buckling. Slowly added pressure to squeeze the deck with the lower clamps and the deck is now inserted into the hinge all the way.
I wish you would have done this before I did mine. Haha
I also used 2 angle pieces on the hinge to stiffen it but it still shakes like crazy.
...........I also used 2 angle pieces on the hinge to stiffen it but it still shakes like crazy.
Well so much for that good idea working out Harlan. I had such great hopes......... Dang it.
Received my new, longer bolts and was able to install and wire in my taxi lights. Covered my glare shield and installed the LED lights I am using to 'flood' the panel should I need it. Have to wait a couple days for the adhesive on the LED strips to totally cure before I can finish fitting the glare shield. Installed the wind screen completely (i.e. all the top, back and front screws). In looking at the screws on the side-front of the wind screen, I thought it might be better to make a long piece with plate nuts to do that attachment. That way, instead of the individual pressure points of the individual screw, washer and nut running down the screen, it would be a more even pressured attachment. Built them up, painted them flat back (no reflection) and installed them. Made that a really easy install and kept my ham hands from dropping the nuts and washers inside the cockpit.
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alexM
07-08-2023, 07:13 PM
Those strips are a great idea. What did you cover your glare shield with?
It's a faux leather (kinda like Naugahyde but much softer and more resistant to elements) used in covering high end boat seats. It's called "Ultralether" and got it from a company called Sailrite. Here's a link to the material: https://www.sailrite.com/Ultraleather-Fabric-54-Raven-Wing . Really nice stuff, takes sun well and easy to dust off (as in pretty smooth). I know many have used suede but thought that would hold dust after time. Here's a pic (albeit not great) of what the surface looks like.
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alexM
07-08-2023, 09:11 PM
Ah, familiar with Sailrite from a previous lifetime, thanks. Boats get hammered by UV so that might be a good choice.
jiott
07-09-2023, 10:52 AM
Gary, I have mixed feelings about those metal strips you added to the windshield side pillars. I agree they may do a good job of spreading out the bolt loads, but I am also wondering if they might cause that side pillar edge of the plexiglass to hold tighter to the frame and not let it move/slip properly during extremes of temperature, which could itself cause cracking. Several places in the build manual for installation of the windshield we are warned to use oversize holes and not to tighten the bolts much beyond hand tight so as to allow for a significant amount of thermal expansion/contraction. If these rules are followed, I doubt very much that cracking will occur at the side pillar bolt holes, or anywhere else. All the plexi cracking I have heard of occurred during installation, rather than afterwards. Interesting and creative idea, but I personally would leave well enough alone with the proven method.
Appreciate the input Jim and agree that the possibility may exist. I purposely did not tighten down the screws on my pillars anymore than just snug for that thermal expansion possibility. Hopefully enough that it allows the movement but provides the consistent support.
Installed my prop and set the pitch to 19.6 degrees for an initial look. Worked on getting the flaperons set up properly for the correct deflections. Not sure I was happy with the end result so may go back and check them again. Something there just doesn't seem right. Installed the sills on the door frames so now they are permanently attached. Last but certainly not least, I started the engine for it's first run up. Tied it to my tractor just in case but did let off the brakes to take the slack out of the rope. (The blanket over the windscreen is just to keep the sun from cooking the plastic coating that covers it. Removed it for the engine turn) All the pressures were good, no leaks and it appears my static RPM at full throttle was around 5100 so I'll have to do a little pitch adjustment and give it another go.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/VjYPY7K0_kk
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alexM
07-19-2023, 01:43 PM
Huge milestone!
bbs428
07-19-2023, 11:05 PM
I had to do many adjustments to get my flaperons dialed in to what the book calls for so your right on track Gary.
No leaks! Woot! It's a good day. Congratz! Your Plane is looking great!
What static rpm are you looking for?
Huge milestone!
Agree Alex. It wasn't lost on me that if I untied from the tractor and released the brakes, it would most likely fly. Not pretty but fly. Lots of stuff still to do but they all seem small in comparison. Looking forward to you starting your engine.
I had to do many adjustments to get my flaperons dialed in to what the book calls for so your right on track Gary.
No leaks! Woot! It's a good day. Congratz! Your Plane is looking great!
What static rpm are you looking for?
Thanks Brett. Glad to hear I am not the only one who is going back multiple times on the flaperons. Not sure what I don't like yet but I still have that feeling which over the years I have learned to trust so back I go. Taking a page from your book and doing stuff with the discretes on the Garmin. I have the Earth X battery and am displaying the status output the battery provides on the PFD and a couple other things I would like to see. As for static RPM I am thinking around 52 to 5300 to start and see where that gets me at the target 5800 WOT on climb out and 5500 cruise. Don't want to over-pitch and load the engine down but at the same time not leave any power on the table. From what I read, the 912 is built to cruise at 53 to 5500 all day so if I showed up to the party at 5450 or so when operating at say 6Kft, I would probably think I was there. Any suggestions welcomed on this one.
G
Benbell4140
07-20-2023, 11:16 AM
I fought the flaperons too. Eventually just got the numbers as close as possible and confirmed with Brandon at the factory that this was fine. I’d have to look in my notes to see how far off I was but it was only slightly “out of tolerance”
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kitfox Pilot
07-20-2023, 03:32 PM
Flaperons are a set to about what the book says item.......
[QUOTE=Benbell4140;109124]I fought the flaperons too. Eventually just got the numbers as close as possible and confirmed with Brandon at the factory that this was fine. I’d have to look in my notes to see how far off I was but it was only slightly “out of tolerance”
Thanks guys..... Tomorrow they are on the list of things to look at and dial in. Appreciate the inputs that "Kentucky Windage" is acceptable in dialing them in.
Gary
Have wrestled with how to mount the sensors for the DynaVibe. Thinking thru things like the effects that the alternator pulley and alternator might have on balancing or taking the alternator off and doing the balance. Got to say I got some good input from Delta Whiskey that helped me make sense of stuff. So armed with that, I came up with this solution. The instructions say to mount the transducer as far forward and center as possible on the engine and this fits the bill. Built the side brackets out of doubled .06 aluminum and then riveted them together so they hold the quarter inch plate on the top nice and sturdy. This should work out I think. Appreciate all the help I got with this so I can move ahead now that I've started the engine and all.
Gary
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bbs428
07-25-2023, 07:34 AM
Your Dynavibe mt. is looking mighty stout! Should get some good readings.
Your Dynavibe mt. is looking mighty stout! Should get some good readings.
From your lips to God's ears Brett. Stout was what I was looking for when building it that's for certain. Finally figured out what was bothering me about my flaperon set up; the deflection numbers I was getting kept changing. I went back again only this time I wrote down all the numbers I was setting to and indeed, they were changing. I ran a set of numbers and then ran them again without doing anything and they would change. Changed as in 4 and 5 degrees. Checked the level I was using with another one and they both matched. Turns out I had not riveted the control arms to the flaperon and was just holding them in place with cleacos. Realized that while the clecos were keeping the holes aligned like they were supposed to, they were letting the joint flex under load and that was my issue. Got them riveted and dialed in the numbers. Ran them a couple times and they were within a degree of each other.
On to Props. I have sent Whirlwind an email about tip tracking. Measured mine and if you set up one as the base measurement, then one blade is 1/8" inside the base and the other blade is 3/16" outside. Not sure that's right but there isn't anything I saw in the mounting/setting the pitch instructions that talked to tracking. Guess I'll find out if they aren't all at OSH.
G
Have been working on getting my PFD dialed in. Lots of reading and programming so far. Got my engine instruments all dialed in and displaying (the FADEC on the 912is provides quite the selection of stuff to monitor) Did an engine turn to check my pitch and it still needs to come down some I think but at the same time, got the vibration testing done for the AHARS. So with all the pics of "Here's where I flew today........" I thought I would throw one in of "Here's where I worked on my plane today." This is where I did the compass alignment for the Magnetometer and it was a really nice day to do it. Tomorrow I will change the pitch and if it looks good, I'll probably run through a couple prop balance runs to see how it looks. Also attached my horiz stab brace covers so I am literally starting to do the little things that were fabricated a while back and stored. Nice to get them on the plane.
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alexM
07-30-2023, 09:31 AM
Looking great Gary. I just realized that picture wasn't taken at your house. Did you borrow a neighbor's flat spot or did you move your project?
Looking great Gary. I just realized that picture wasn't taken at your house. Did you borrow a neighbor's flat spot or did you move your project?
Good eye. Yes my neighbor graciously not only let me use his lawn (literally 3 acres worth) to do engine turns on but also let me keep the plane in his shop. Much easier than loading it on a trailer every time I want to do something and taking it over there. His shop also has a 10' wide door which is much easier to get the 8'6" plane into than my 9' shop doors. Just about done with needing his area but really nice of him. Funny how it is so much easier to level the plane to do calibrations and such on an asphalt drive than on my rock one.
G
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