If you need insurance...

[aviator79]

As some of you know, I had an unfortunate incident in my plane last year that resulted in an insurance claim. My insurance carrier non-renewed me, and I contacted every agent I could, and nobody could find a carrier that would cover me. Avemco would not either. A couple friends of mine recently insured their new plane and told me to contact Mike Travers and Travers at Associates Aviation Insurance. As a last resort, I did. I begged and pleaded and offered my first born if he could get me a quote. He took some time to ask a bunch of questions, which none of the other agents did. Then he told me that he couldn't find a carrier either. My insurance expired yesterday, and I've been kind of torn over how I should approach flying for the next couple years. Losing my plane would be emotionally crushing, but self-insuring against liability could be financially devastating. I was also possibly facing having to sell my hangar because the county requires liability insurance and nobody would even quote me a premises-only liability policy.

Then, today Mike informed me that he found me a quote, and the rate is actually very reasonable given my recent loss. ($1934) So if anyone is looking for insurance, especially if you're in a difficult spot, give Travers and Associates a call. They earned a customer for life and a zealous advocate today. Please also tell him who referred you and why. He deserves to know how much this level of service means to his clients.

[Delta Whisky]

Brian - thanks for this post. I'm going to bet that a lot of folks will benefit around renewal time; so might Mr. Travers.

[alexM]

How much liability did the insurance company pay out for your incident? I'm asking because the fat tire crowd gravitates away from population centers and tend to only bang up their planes and some dirt/rocks.

If the answer is $0.00 then getting liability shouldn't be that hard. Hull insurance is what most of your insurance bill is, and if they paid out a chunk for that it might explain why you were - what's the expression? Oh yes: invited to shop elsewhere for coverage.

I know there are varying opinions but for a plane I build myself and bang up myself, I would probably also repair it myself and not call the insurance company.

When I first started flying warbirds I got a quote and a healthy dose of sticker shock. Six years of premiums would equal the cost of the plane, so I stuck with liability coverage only. I figure if I went down I would likely die in a 120 gallon 100LL fireball so getting square with the hull coverage wouldn't be of much concern.

[AMK53]

I will definitely call them up. I have to renew mine right now and AIG is just trying to rip me off. They made a killing off of me last year.

[aviator79]

How much liability did the insurance company pay out for your incident?

If the answer is $0.00 then getting liability shouldn't be that hard.

They paid zero in liability, but let me tell you, nothing makes sense about the industry right now. None of the underwriters would even quote a liability-only policy for the plane - not even while it's not in motion. They wouldn't even quote a liability policy for my hangar. None of this makes any sense. The agents said right now ANY loss history makes you completely untouchable for two years. The only motivation I can think of for why this is the case is that the carriers want to make it as painful as possible to make a claim in order to discourage pilots from making claims for covered losses. I'm not suggesting there should be no consequence. It would make sense to require additional training, charge higher premiums, and/or to put more specific operational restrictions in place. Completely shutting pilots out who have made one claim in 25 years is purely punitive. Fortunately, Travers found a carrier willing to be reasonable.

I would keep this in mind when shopping. Knowing that the potential consequence of a claim is to be uninsurable for two years makes any discussion of deductibles meaningless. They will all by lower than the point at which it's worth it to make a claim.

[AMK53]

I wonder how they would treat you if the accident is not your fault.

[Clark in AZ]

Thanks Brian for the heads up. Glad you were able to get re-insured. Not a good position to be in for sure.

Clark

[aviator79]

I wonder how they would treat you if the accident is not your fault.

While I was not being reckless per se, my incident was the result of my failure to correctly evaluate the condition of the landing surface. The contributing factors are many, and that's a whole discussion unto itself. That said, bear in mind that this was not a reportable incident, and no official determination of fault or cause was ever made. The only information the underwriters had was that there was loss due to a landing incident, and the amount of the loss. It's reasonable to infer that small claims on landing are almost universally pilot error, but nobody asked probing questions to try to determine the exact circumstances or assign fault.

I have heard, purely anecdotally, that if the claim is very clearly due to mechanical failure, you are not likely be non-renewed by your carrier. Avemco told me that if my policy had been with them, they probably would not have non-renewed my policy over a claim of this size, but they would not quote me on a new policy.

[109JB]

That said, bear in mind that this was not a reportable incident,

I remember seeing your thread about the accident. Technically it was reportable because of the bent wing strut. The other damage during recovery is not included in the assessment, but the bent wing strut was due to the nose over and would put it over the edge for "substantial damage"

[gtinla]

I have been an aviation insurance agent for the past 11 years. The industry is changing in the following ways. 1. at least 4 insurers have quit the GA business in the last 24 months. 2. Premiums that were in a decline have started to rise significantly due to losses and less competition. 3. Current carriers are reducing their exposure to unique aircraft types. 4. Carriers are favoring annual training exposures versus the "BFR." 5. Some underwriters are surcharging Basic Med pilots. 6. Some underwriters are not insuring Basic Med pilots age 70 or older. 6. Some underwriters have a minimum premium of $3k. 7. One carrier has a minimum age of 25 yrs.

Feel free to PM or call if you have any questions.

GT
N1461F Kitfox IV (in the 40hr test flight stage)
ATP CFI CFII MEI SEL SES MEL MES FEJ

[Zrayner]

Insurance is such a scam. Like yeah go ahead and pay me some money for something that likely won’t happen


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[Eric Page]

Insurance is such a scam.
Crash your airplane with your neighbor's kid in the right seat, putting him in a wheelchair, then tell us how much of a scam your insurance is.

A good friend just had his son land his C-172RG gear up, destroying the prop, governor, engine, antennas, belly skins, etc. Total loss. Insurance company is writing him a check for the hull value and he's free to buy another plane. I don't think he feels like he got scammed.

[gtinla]

Insurance is such a scam. Like yeah go ahead and pay me some money for something that likely won’t happen


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I don't mean to lecture but I will take exception to your claim that "insurance is such a scam." I have been flying for 44 yrs and in the insurance business for 16 yrs.

Insurance companies assume 98% of the risk associated with insuring an aircraft. They do so because in fact they don't expect to pay out. But stuff happens and then the payout happens.

I have seen prop strikes, people/prop strikes, engine failures resulting in death and injuries, rotor/prop wash accidents, wind storm damage to hangared aircraft, etc. Checkout the Aviation Safety Network for the daily listing of accidents and incidents. If these aircraft hadn't been insured the results would have been financial ruin in the majority of the cases.

Be safe and never have a claim.

Regards.

GT

[alexM]

I have been an aviation insurance agent for the past 11 years. The industry is changing in the following ways. 1. at least 4 insurers have quit the GA business in the last 24 months. 2. Premiums that were in a decline have started to rise significantly due to losses and less competition. 3. Current carriers are reducing their exposure to unique aircraft types. 4. Carriers are favoring annual training exposures versus the "BFR." 5. Some underwriters are surcharging Basic Med pilots. 6. Some underwriters are not insuring Basic Med pilots age 70 or older. 6. Some underwriters have a minimum premium of $3k. 7. One carrier has a minimum age of 25 yrs.

Feel free to PM or call if you have any questions.

GT
N1461F Kitfox IV (in the 40hr test flight stage)
ATP CFI CFII MEI SEL SES MEL MES FEJ

Thanks for posting this. I'm curious what the actuarial math is for pilots over 70. Is it a real statistic? I don't think the sky is raining old geezers. I met the chief pilot of Kenmore Air at a christmas party a couple of years ago and he said his best pilots were all over 70.

I will say that your post about recurrent training prompted me to reach out to Stick & Rudder so I can get Kitfox specific training. Looks like I'll be making a road trip to Idaho in March.

And *** with "minimum premium of $3k"? My Citabria insurance went down every year I owned it and was around $550 last year even when I added a pilot with low tail wheel time to my policy.

[airlina]

Thanks for posting this. I'm curious what the actuarial math is for pilots over 70. Is it a real statistic? I don't think the sky is raining old geezers. I met the chief pilot of Kenmore Air at a christmas party a couple of years ago and he said his best pilots were all over 70.

I will say that your post about recurrent training prompted me to reach out to Stick & Rudder so I can get Kitfox specific training. Looks like I'll be making a road trip to Idaho in March.

And *** with "minimum premium of $3k"? My Citabria insurance went down every year I owned it and was around $550 last year even when I added a pilot with low tail wheel time to my policy.

Alex I'm afraid you are in for a bit of sticker shock when you go to insure your Kitfox . I've been flying my Series 5 for 18 years and have an on and off insurance history. Most years only liability a few years liability and hull , even a few years neither and during those years I give no rides. I am retired airline 19,000 hrs. , coming up on 1000 hrs make and model in my airplane with a no accident , no incident, no claims history. Just went thru the best rate hunt for the umpteenth time and the best I could do was $1384 for $55000 hull plus liability. I think you will find the Experimental insurance market to be a lot like you described in the Warbird market. If my Kitfox was a cessna 150 (or Citabria) I'd probably be around a $500-600 / year premium. A clean history and experience doesn't seem to matter in this market . Bruce N199CL

[PapuaPilot]

Alex I'm afraid you are in for a bit of sticker shock when you go to insure your Kitfox . I've been flying my Series 5 for 18 years and have an on and off insurance history. Most years only liability a few years liability and hull , even a few years neither and during those years I give no rides. I am retired airline 19,000 hrs. , coming up on 1000 hrs make and model in my airplane with a no accident , no incident, no claims history. Just went thru the best rate hunt for the umpteenth time and the best I could do was $1384 for $55000 hull plus liability. I think you will find the Experimental insurance market to be a lot like you described in the Warbird market. If my Kitfox was a cessna 150 (or Citabria) I'd probably be around a $500-600 / year premium. A clean history and experience doesn't seem to matter in this market . Bruce N199CL

Your experience sounds very similar to mine too Bruce. I only have 10,000 hours TT, 400 in type and about 1,000 in tailwheel. I am paying roughly the same premium as you for $65K hull. When I initially went looking for insurance the agent said there weren't any other boxes to tick to reduce my rate since I had my commercial, instrument, SEL, SES, SEL and lots of tailwheel, complex, turboprop and retractable time.

[alexM]

Bruce and Phil,
That's sobering, so thanks for that. I think. A quote of $1384 for liability and $55k hull wouldn't be ridiculous.

By comparison, $3k was the quote I got to provide dual instruction in my Citabria with a $30k hull value. I'll report back what my quote is when it comes in, which should be early next week.

If it is extreme then I'll carry liability only just to shut my county owned hangar manager up. My Kitfox is being paid for over time with cash, so if I bend it I will repair it the same way.

I'm not going to declare insurance as a scam but comparing them to a casino isn't too far off. The rules always favor the house. They are after all a for-profit business.

Not quite two years ago my car was vandalized by a random crackhead in the parking lot at work. It was my first insurance claim in over 40 years of paying USAA and I was always annoyed at paying since I never even filed a claim for a chipped windshield. I also always declined extra coverage when renting vehicles for the same reason.
27491
The bill for my car was almost $7k.

But wait, there's more
While my car was being repaired I was put into an rental car, an Infinity QX60. USAA specifically told me that I was covered to drive the car and not to worry about a thing.

Two days before I expected my own car back I picked my favorite woman up at the airport and drove home. Not even a half mile from the house some teenagers on a joy ride came flying around a blind, very tight corner. They crossed the centerline at over 45mph for sure. This road is cut into a hillside with no escape so all I could do was peg the brakes and move as far to the right as possible.

I will never forget seeing the impending direct head and knowing that we were probably all dead or at least seriously maimed. I got to experience my first full air bag deployment. The Infinity which was almost brand new was completely destroyed. The little Mitsubishi the girls were driving hit us hard enough to shove us backwards into the jersey barrier, twisting the big SUV enough to jam doors closed.

I had a broken thumb. My girlfriend had a banged up knee and hit her head. Thankfully "this isn't your father's Oldsmobile", am I right?

The scene when I finally managed to get my door open was pretty crazy. The girl in the right rear of the car had poured out and was on her head with her butt sticking straight up. I was sure she was dead and two of her friends were freaking out shaking her. She flopped around like she didn't have a bone in her body. The girl in the right front seat of the car had been ejected down the road. I tell people it was over 25 yards so it seems even slightly plausible but it was considerably further.

I remember being confused because she was walking up the hill towards us and I thought she was a friend of theirs who witnessed the accident. The girls were all high on something which may explain why the one walking up the hill was just mad about the accident and not yet aware of her injuries. The "dead" girl eventually regained consciousness just as the medics arrived.
27492
27493
You can see the wheel track up the right front fender of the car, which was caused by the left front wheel of the SUV, and left fender was treated slightly worse by the right wheel of the SUV. The Infinity doesn't look that bad from the front in this image but the insurance agent for Enterprise sent me 36 images of the SUV in the wrecking yard and it was TOAST. None of the doors fit.

The kicker was the 17 year old driver carried the bare minimum of insurance, just like I used to do. Thank the Maker it covered the SUV because otherwise I could have been stuck paying for a brand new SUV that I didn't like and couldn't drive. I finally got my $500 deductible back about two months ago.

The medical coverage? Is still an ongoing issue two years down the road. Three of those girls in the image were taken to the emergency room and lawyered up. The amount of bodily injury coverage will be divided up at some future date but it won't pay but a fraction of the bills. We were advised to also seek legal counsel which has been all but useless.

When I rent cars or even U-haul trailers now I happily check the box that says "I will return this vehicle in unrecognizable condition and you will say thank you".

[airlina]

Alex, a scary story indeed, crazy world out there and we never know whats coming around the next bend. Glad all survived, looks like it could have gone another way very easily. Bruce N199CL

[desertdave]

Quite the story, I'm glad nobody was killed. Living in a border state I learned long ago that you can't have enough insurance. Just once I want to be hit by somebody with a drivers license and insurance or better yet, not get hit at all.
I too check the box on the rental agreement that lets me toss the keys on the counter and say "It's your problem now".
Be safest out there!

[iflywhatevr]

Travers was the ONLY insurance agency that was able to get me a several million dollar life insurance policy that has no exclusions for the part 91 and 135 flying that I do. Amazing how most pilots don’t realize that many of their existing life insurance policies won’t pay out in the case of an aircraft crash.


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[alexM]

That is a good point. And you're correct, most life insurance policies exclude part 91 flying and it pays to read the policy. My dad was not a fan of me learning to fly and used that point to argue that GA flying is not as safe as we would all like to think.

My kids are grown, my significant other can support herself and my affairs are in order. I work for an airplane company and carry a pretty good chunk of term life which will all go to my kids. My policy does not exclude flying. As a bonus (if there could be a bonus in dying) my payout doubles if I die on company property and triples if I die while traveling on company business. So here's to hoping, am I right? Assuming I make it to retirement before reaching room temperature my kids will have to pick through my limited assets, but at least I won't owe anything.

Now for the good news
I just got my quote back from my insurance broker. Using an $80k hull value my quote while my plane is under construction is $480/year. Once completed my rate is $1950/year. Not the sticker shock I was expecting. I love that lady more every time she quotes my policy.

[avidflyer]

I just got my bill for next years insurance on my Avid Flyer and Kitfox 4. The Avid was 367, and the Kitfox was $335. This is for $500,000 liability only on each and through Avemco. That price for the Kitfox is the lowest I've ever been charged. JImChuk

[Rodney]

I formed a LLC and put my airplane in it. The LLC has no other assets - sue away.

I no longer personally own the airplane.

If I ding it up -I can get any part I need to fix it. Older pilots are running out of reasonable
choices.

Regards
Rodney

[avidflyer]

Some states, Mn being one of them requires at least liability insurance on an airplane. JImChuk

[Cherrybark]

Contacted Travers, mentioning I was shopping for insurance through them because they were able to find coverage for Brian. I'm definitely a rusty pilot with only 8 hours in the last 12 months (Stinson and Waco Biplane) to get my ratings current. Ratings are commercial single, multi and glider. Also have an instrument rating. Overall just over 1200 hours total time with 168 hours tail dragger. No clue what parts of that information matter to the underwriter. I asked for $1mil liability and $0 hull. Travers found coverage through Global Aerospace for $495. Before acting as PIC I have to complete a check out with a CFI in a different Kitfox. I already had sessions scheduled with an FBO who uses a Kitfox for taildragger training.

Thanks for recommending Travers Brian.

[Zrayner]

Crash your airplane with your neighbor's kid in the right seat, putting him in a wheelchair, then tell us how much of a scam your insurance is..

Yeah, not for what they charge for experimentals it’s not and they wonder why GA isn’t growing, when it costs you 2/3s of your income to own a plane and be able to fly it, I would say that is an Issue.

[Kitfox Guy]

I just renewed my insurance with Old Republic, $1 million liability and No Hull coverage. I used a broker and Old Republic had the best offer of $420 for a years coverage. I’m well into my 60’s, private pilot, with about a thousand hours in the KF, no prior claims or reportable incidents.

[Russell320]

New insurance premiums……Kitfox- $107 liability + $822 hull ($29,000)=$929 premium.
RV6A- $112 liability + $588 hull ($65,000)=$700 premium…….$929 + $700=$1629 total premium.

I'm happy! 😁 I thought it would be worse.

[Kitfox Guy]

I just renewed my insurance with Falcon Insurance. I’ve got $1 million liability and no hull. The new rate is $509, about $80 more than last year. I’m well into my sixties, no prior claims, incidents or accidents, with about 1K KF hours.

[airlina]

Michael , just went thru the insurance dilemma myself , got a qoute that i had them break down with liability only -same as you paid over $500( I'm mid 60's in age as well) and the next with liability with a minimal hull value tacked on of only $30,000. (obvious not near what the plane is worth , but the benefit is now the liability drops to $107 and the hull is $890 for a total of $997. It seems its all a shell game with insurance so I bit the bullet and paid the grand. As I recall last year I had $50,000 hull and it was close to $1500 bucks. Bruce N199CL

[tylerhamm]

You guys are lucky.. Up here in Canada, I'm paying almost 1300.00$ without hull, only liability. 3 Years ago it was $800.00. No accidents.

[109JB]

Michael , just went thru the insurance dilemma myself , got a qoute that i had them break down with liability only -same as you paid over $500( I'm mid 60's in age as well) and the next with liability with a minimal hull value tacked on of only $30,000. (obvious not near what the plane is worth , but the benefit is now the liability drops to $107 and the hull is $890 for a total of $997. It seems its all a shell game with insurance so I bit the bullet and paid the grand. As I recall last year I had $50,000 hull and it was close to $1500 bucks. Bruce N199CL

I'd be careful undervaluing the hull coverage. If you have a loss, the agreed value is used to base whether they will pay for repair. Usually if damage reaches 75% of agreed value, not actual value, they will total it and try to recoup some of the loss by selling your airplane for salvage.

Also, if totaled, the agreed value is all you get and they get the airplane and any installed equipment.

[airlina]

Good information John, for the 20 years I've owned and flown my Series 5 I was totally uninsured probably 3/4 of those years. Very rarely do I ever have any hull insurance so I am not risk averse and have no problem with self insuring . Only problem is the last few years I have given lots of rides and to do that I have to have liability insurance. With the inflationary pricing on everything these days , somethings got to give , and to continue flying it will be no more insurance if things don't change. I will then have to shut down "Airlina" -the one seat domestic airline. Bruce N199CL

[stuartbw]

Here's a post-COVID, inflation-lunacy update...

For a new Model 7 SS as a low-time pilot (100-ish hours), I'm being quoted $4,950/year. ($410/mo). That is with hull coverage at $120k. Liability is $495/year. But I'm flying a diversified portion of my retirement fund here so I'm not willing to risk it...

They did tell me that at 150 hours they'd knock off 5%. No discounts for add'l training.

[insert nausea emoji here....]

[Av8r3400]

As a comparison, I have a private/instrument ticket with 1300TT, about 1000 taildragger/Kitfox, my insurance renewal this August for the Mangy Fox (Model 4-1200) full hull declared at $60k, $1M liability, is $1800/year.

This is through EAA/Falcon insurance brokerage.