Will I regret ordering a speedster?

[mrpilotron]

Hello all. I'm the typical newbie tire-kicker today. I am still working out what to build and would love some feedback on where my thoughts are at this point. Like most people at this stage, I have spent FAR too many hours reading forums, digesting various web sites, building pro/con lists, making spreadsheets of features, speeds, loads, engines, etc... There are just a few more factory visits left before I write that all-important deposit check.

I have flown everything from a powered parachute to a Cherokee and a lot of the slower airplanes were just more fun. I earned my instrument rating in a well-used PA-28-161 so I am very familiar with what those planes offer. I can always rent that plane if I need to fill 4 seats and go somewhere. I loved the visibility of a Rans S-12. The "pull up to avoid the cow" flying in a Challenger was certainly an interesting day, but there is just about zero chance my financial manager will agree to either of those and she needs to be 100% on board with whatever we decide on. For the last decade, I have been 90% sure I'd eventually build a Zenith CH650. My flight with Roger at their factory was very impressive. Then I was fortunate enough to meet Randy Schlitter (owner of RANS) who spent nearly 3 hours showing off and bragging about the wonderful ways they "mash, bend, squish, cut, and shape" metal. My favorite toy at his factory was the S-6ES, which is no longer in production. As much as I enjoyed the Rans factory tour, I kept going back to the CH-650. Mostly because I am comfortable doing sheet metal work and pulling rivets is easy. I briefly considered the STOL CH701, but my wife is only interested in an airplane as a way to get somewhere. She is not impressed by going 80. She can do that in her car. We also looked at the RV-12iS and it is more similar to the CH-650 than it is different. It's a wonderful little traveler that can also just putter around the pattern on a lazy afternoon.

Then along comes an endless string of You Tube videos. Anybody care to guess who kept popping up flying his Kitfox? Yeah... That guy... So I dusted off some really old brain cells that looked at an Avid Flyer about a million years ago and contrasted that to what I see in the Kitfox today. Man, what an evolution! I'm still not real sure about doing fabric work, but I suppose it's just a matter of taking some time to learn. I'm seriously considering building a Kitfox now instead of an all-aluminum plane. The SS7 just barely specs enough cruise speed to make the wife happy and it seems like a great way to drill some low-n-slow holes in the sky when she's not along. She was significantly more interested in the RV-9A cruise speed until she saw the typical cost to complete and build time required. I also appreciate some cruise speed because 2 of my favorite places to visit are 460 miles and 910 miles away in a straight line. It would be really nice to make those trips at 130 MPH without renting that Warrior or a 172.

Since I am ready to get started on this long-time dream project, I decided I should double check hanger availability at my local airport. It's not looking so good, but I have plenty of garage space and the airport is only 3 miles away. I am a pro with a welder so building a custom transport trailer is a 1-week project. No big deal. Suddenly, removable or foldable wings became a design feature that's pretty high on the list. Removable wings on the RV-12 or foldable on a Kitfox SS or Speedster. That's what it's down to. In evaluating the Speedster, it appears that there are a few minor aero mods on the tail (optional for the SS) and it looses a few feet of wing span. I assume it's the exact same airfoil, just less of it. Since the speedster has the same gross weight, it seems reasonable to assume that the higher wing loading will make turbulence slightly less turbulent. That is a HUGE thing for making my wife happy. Is a Speedster the Goldilocks solution that makes us both smile a little? Or is the longer wing of the SS a better overall choice so I can slow down a little more and just accept the extra 30 minutes of flight time required to finish that long cross-country flight that will only happen once per year? Or, perhaps I will go there more often if I can get there in half the time.

I know this got a little long, but I wanted to make sure I gave people enough background info to make an intelligent recommendation rather than just reply with what they built. I look forward to any suggestions.

[mattkalin]

Very Tough choice indeed. I think you have narrowed it down to Two Excellent Candidates. I am Building a Kitfox S7 STI and when completed will likely jump into building an RV-12 as well. Really comes down to what you prefer to work with. Wood/Fabric or Aluminum ? Both Kits are excellent and for support whether its here or Vansairforce.com is the best in the experimental category IMO. Another thing to consider is how often you will be visiting unimproved strips. While I have no doubt the RV will handle the grass fine. A Gravel Bar is a different deal. Be careful with watching too many Trent Palmer videos..... You will likely wind up in a Kitfox... Dont ask me how I know... good luck!

Came back to Edit my post.... Another thing I just thought of is your Build Timeframe. If you want to start building within the next 14 Months your going to be building a Vans... Pretty long Kitfox waitlist I hear.

[Benbell4140]

Having built an RV8 in the past, I much prefer tube and fabric. They are both great kits with very nice plans. I find the kitfox is much less mentally demanding to build. More enjoyable for me. Everyone has preferences though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Maverick]

You won't be folding the wings on a Kitfox as often as you think. While it is an advertised feature it shouldn't be considered as the norm. You have to drain the fuel tanks empty each time. It is good if you need to do extensive work and don't have a hanger but it is not something you should expect to do every time you want to go flying. And remember that an anplane isn't built to drag around.

[taff]

Thinking of a trailer and taking the Kitfox home.
Make sure you have a garage door height that allows the trailer and the aircraft tail end that's perched on it to clear the opening.
I made a shed/hangar to accommodate my rig. Picture below.

Folding the wings.
As to draining the tanks. If it is a tail wheel, with the tail wheel on the ground you will need to drain (not empty) some fuel.
If it is a nose wheel, the tail is up and the fuel spill should not be much of a problem.

I had a tail wheel.
Makes it relatively easy to winch up on a trailer. (tail wheel first, set in U track) The track was built on a upward slope from back to front.
I sort of half winched off or half winched on before folding or unfolding the wings. You can say that the folded wings were close to horizontal.
With the Fox on the floor and the wings in position, then I topped up the tanks.

I remember it was easy to fold the wings and sticking in the pin when the airplane was half way down / or up the ramp. One person as compared to two.

I never had them but maybe a non vented fuel cap in place of the vented could be used for transportation? Don't forget to install the vented for flight!

[mrpilotron]

You have to drain the fuel tanks empty each time.

Thank you for that tip. It's a point in favor of the RV-12. The counter-point being that removing wings is a 2 person job while folding can be done solo. I was planning on using a 30 gallon wheeled fuel caddy since they don't sell mogas at the airport. Draining the tanks may not be such a big deal since I would have the fuel caddy in my trailer already.

You're probably right about not folding the wings a lot. The current wait list for hangars is estimated at 3-5 years and I'm already on the list so it's possible that this whole issue goes away shortly after the airplane is finished. Ah.... now I'm second guessing how important that removable/foldable requirement really is... The Kitfox wait looks to be around 17 months. The RV-12 is only 2 months. I could be more than half done on an RV-12 by the time the Kitfox shows up. This isn't getting any easier.

[mrpilotron]

Taff,
Thank you for those pics! The overhead clearance is handled. I have a pole barn with 14-foot high doors. Your trailer setup is very close to what I was imagining to build. I'd make the deck a little longer so I could do a race car style front air dam to protect the tail feathers and probably have the main gear drop into low cradles right behind the trailer axle. This would be a purpose built custom trailer that's specifically designed for only one thing. I have plenty of other utility trailers for other "trailer stuff" purposes. I'll build mine as a tri-gear so some minor adjustments for that would be fairly obvious. I have some practice with mechanical motion automation so designing an electric shuttle operation that self-loads and unloads would be a fun afternoon.

Your comments about the fuel tank draining makes me wonder if the primary reason for empty tanks is to avoid spills vs. weight shifting causing the tri-gear to pop a wheelie or possibly preventing damage from unsupported force when the front spar is disconnected. If it's just a weight shift concern, I could easily fix that with a tail cradle that holds the tail up when it tries to drop. Keeping the wings relatively level is just a matter setting the height and angle for the tail cradle.

Ron

[Eric Page]

This isn't getting any easier.
Just wait until you're looking at a pile of parts and think, "What have I gotten myself into?!"

[taff]

Ron,
If you make lower wheel cradles, It will be good for the loading of the Fox, but maybe difficult to get the thing out again when unloading.
I kept things on the level and made holsters that the wheels set into Picture below. When in place, I strapped the wheels in nice and snug.

I have no idea how you would get a front wheel airplane on a trailer. No strap attach point and no tail wheel to go up the U channel slip. And of course the nose wheel will be out there dangling.
I am sure others have done this :)

[ken nougaret]

You won't be folding the wings on a Kitfox as often as you think. While it is an advertised feature it shouldn't be considered as the norm. You have to drain the fuel tanks empty each time. It is good if you need to do extensive work and don't have a hanger but it is not something you should expect to do every time you want to go flying. And remember that an anplane isn't built to drag around.
I trailer 4 miles to the airport every time I fly. Been doing it 4 yrs and 330 hours. Not bad at all.
And wings only need to be half empty.

[n85ae]

I fold my wings every year at Annual inspection when I replace the sight tubes. It's simple, BUT it's tedious, and needs
to be done carefully, and slowly, to avoid damaging anything. I would never do it regularly, and consider trailering to
be an "only if I absolutely must" operation.

I think people do trailer them regularly, but I wouldn't do it.

Jeff

[ken nougaret]

Scissor jack to lower tail. Homemade, removable contraption to attach strap to for pulling up on trailer.

[Utah-Jay]

The Rans S-21 will fly slow and get your wife there pretty fast if you want. Reports are coming out of a Titan powered S-21 truing out at 160 mph and stalling at 37-38

http://www.ransclan.com/forums/showthread.php?6627-First-flight!

[109JB]

The S-21 doesn't have foldable wings does it? If not they are not what I would call easily removeable, either of which are part of the OP's requirements.

[Utah-Jay]

The S-21 doesn't have foldable wings does it? If not they are not what I would call easily removeable, either of which are part of the OP's requirements.

Oops, my bad, sorry

[mrpilotron]

The S-21 doesn't have foldable wings does it? If not they are not what I would call easily removeable, either of which are part of the OP's requirements.
You are correct. I looked at the S-21 pretty hard before I found out there's a long wait for hangar space. I actually pushed that one a little farter down the list because it calls for about 50K worth of engine and prop + a 40K kit. Add all the other finishing stuff and it would be nearly impossible to complete one for under 100K. It wouldn't be hard to make one cost 140K. That starts to nibble into my retirement savings a little more than I like. The RV-14 is pretty much in the same position. There must be a whole lot of people ordering the S-21 though because it's a 14 month wait list right now. I'm super happy about seeing Randy's business booming so much. He's a great guy with a huge passion for airplanes and I have nothing but respect for what he's doing, but his offerings just don't quite line up with my needs.

At this point, I'm about 55/45 split between doing the RV-12iS vs. a Kitfox. One of the biggest things holding me back from just going ahead and ordering the RV-12iS is concern for being able to attach and detach the wings by myself when I'm going for a solo flight. I have a dozen people who say they would come help, but I don't want to have friends make a drive out to the airport every time I feel like drilling holes in the sky. They would get tired of that after a while. This problem will eventually go away once my slot comes up in the waiting list for a hangar, but I hope to put a lot of hours on my plane while I'm waiting. I am aware of at least one person who built a caster supported wing rack that allows him to remove and install the wings by himself so that might be an option too. I'd have to build something like that to keep in my trailer.

Ron

[jiott]

If you are 45/55 split between an RV-12 and a Kitfox, I think you really need to spend more time seriously defining your flying mission. Those two planes are for very different missions; its like saying I can't decide between eating an apple or a T-bone steak.

[mrpilotron]

If you are 45/55 split between an RV-12 and a Kitfox, I think you really need to spend more time seriously defining your flying mission. Those two planes are for very different missions; its like saying I can't decide between eating an apple or a T-bone steak.
Fair point, but I like apples and steaks. If I had to choose a lifetime supply of either, I'd have a hard time. And the more I analyze airplane options, the more I fear missing out on the great stuff I would give up from the other one. I'm sure most aircraft owners went through this same dilemma before choosing one.

If I wasn't trying to keep the wife happy, I would probably end up in a Kitfox or one of the exceptionally similar clones. It would be more like choosing between Gala or Honeycrisp apples. There are no wrong answers.

[Iowa 67]

Compromise, get one of each :)

[109JB]

Since you have access to a PA28, I would choose the Kitfox personally. The RV 12 is basically the same mission as a PA28 but with 2 seats

[Maverick]

I think I read in an EAA Sport Aviation magazine about choosing which plane to build that it is estimated that a pilot will spend >80% of his time flying solo. In my case it's more like >95% of the time. When I'm by myself I like to fly both fast enough to get somewhere although I don't typically go very far and I like to go slow enough to check out the terrain at a lower level and land in the desert if I want to. I couldn't do all of this in very many airplanes. Of those, I find the Kitfox to be the most affordable and of the best performance for my kind of flying. I would never routinely try to put an RV12 down in the desert or very often on an unimproved runway for that matter. You mentioned it taking you an extra 30mins to get to your destination. How often would that even be a factor? It is true there are no wrong answers but when there are five right answers you have to figure out which is the best right answer and that ain't always easy as you obviously know. Sometimes you have to consider the intangible economics. Who's going to do the work? Who's going to fly it and how much? Who's going to change the oil, do the annuals and pamper it. I'm not saying ignore your wife, heaven forbid, but when it comes to a debate, don't forget the non-monetary investment you are going to make and who should harvest the greatest reward as part of your discussions. Once my wife saw how much work went into building a plane, how many different kinds of things I had to do, how long it took, she has never complained about it and has more often told me, "Go fly. You've earned it."

[n85ae]

The mission that you dream about, and that you later end up flying are very different. I would have
to say that most of my flights are, nice day, go out flying for an hour, hang out chat with the guys.
Very, very, few where it matters at all how far, and how fast.

My favorite summer flying is actually just above idle thermalling my Kitfox in pseudo glider mode ..

When I built it I was reading over, and over again the "Michel Gordillo" story about "Madosh" (Madrid
to Oshkosh in a Kitfox), that was kind of the dream, long flight around the world in my homebuilt
with tent, and sleeping bag ...

I painted mine with Aerothane, it looks great, BUT if I built it again I would have painted it with
polytone because it would be a lot easier to chop a hole in the fabric to later change something ...

So - Time, and experience will change the mission totally.

Jeff

[alexM]

I think the mission statement thing is a bit over blown. Mine is "two butts and some bags, little wheel in the back". That an RV-12 cruises faster than a Kitfox wouldn't exclude either one from consideration (skipping my tail my personal wheel requirement, which is not concrete). And that an RV-12 is a low wing trike doesn't mean you can't land on a grass strip somewhere or use it for camping.

There are many who would tell you an RV-12 isn't a cross country machine. I disagree of course. Here in the PNW even a slow plane is way faster than a car in trips across the state, to the San Jauns, etc. And differences in cruise speeds really only matter on longer trips. Last year I departed my home airport in my Citabria at the same time as a V tail bonanza. I completed my run up before him and took off for my breakfast destination 52NM away. About 15 minutes later he passed over me looking all kinds of sexy and going considerably faster. I heard his radio calls as he neared the destination. I taxied in to see him and his bride still getting out of the plane. I was in line ahead of them for breakfast, smiling at my victory.

I would hazard a guess that many Kitfox builders imagine themselves as bad a** back country operators, but will spend 95% of their time operating from airstrips with identifiers. It's sort of like how I ride an "adventure motorcycle" and think I'm all kinds of amazing until I look in the rear view mirror and see a Prius.

I guess I'm saying that if you're landing at Johnson Creek with 36" tires and park next to a Bonanza, you might be over equipped.

To the OP, I notice you crossed off the S-21 because the engine and prop add $50k to the price of the project. That's going to be an issue with all of your kit selections. You can spend less but it will require scrounging, a used engine, etc. I'm still going through sticker shock withdraw symptoms over instrument panels.

[efwd]

Yeah, I now feel like I should have got the speedster but when I bought, I only had the 7SS as an option. The speedster came out the following year. I still consider building speedster wings. I had no idea how limited the terrain is out here in Southern California. Now, I hope to improve mine when the new LSA rules come out and or the automatic adjustable prop becomes available. Having the ability to have a cruise setting on the prop will be a significant improvement IMO. Watching Kyle Franklin fly the speedster is inspiring.

[GuppyWN]

S21 and forego the folding wings.

[109JB]

Yeah, I now feel like I should have got the speedster but when I bought, I only had the 7SS as an option. The speedster came out the following year. I still consider building speedster wings. I had no idea how limited the terrain is out here in Southern California. Now, I hope to improve mine when the new LSA rules come out and or the automatic adjustable prop becomes available. Having the ability to have a cruise setting on the prop will be a significant improvement IMO. Watching Kyle Franklin fly the speedster is inspiring.

I'm rebuilding a Kitfox 4 Speedster and have decided to keep it a speedster, but one thing you might want to consider is that there is some evidence that the Speedster is actually slower. The one I'm rebuilding was owned by an acquaintance and another acquaintance owned a long wing Kitfox 4, both similarly equipped. Both had 80 hp 912 ULs, and both ran GSC props. The Speedster had airfoil tail surfaces, aerodynamic radiator scoop, streamlined struts everywhere, wheel pants and small wheels and the other one had round struts on the tail and the 21" Nanco balloon tires. The long winged 4 would outrun the speedster every day. Also I read on Bryan Bowens website that his yellow Kitfox with speedster wings was faster after he put long wing extensions on it, making the span the same as a factory long wing. The link below he confirms this.

https://teamkitfox.com/Forums/threads/7150-Quick-change-wing-extensions

Like I said, I am sticking with the speedster wing for now but may build some extensions down the road. I acquired enough good parts off of a wrecked wing to build some but will get it flying first.

[ColdFusion]

I am in the same boat... I have been kicking the tires for awhile and have even jumped in the sprinter and visited a few of the factories and reps around the country. My top pick is always the last plane I saw. And right now that is the S-21. I think the cabin is a bit wider and Im a bigger guy so that was huge for me. Im also short so the better visibility was a huge advantage. I ended up leaning to the S-21 after I tried to buy a Kitfox and the delivery time was so far out - that was the single thing that got me looking outside the kitfox fence line. I really liked the Highlander and until the S-21 came into view that was my top pick, shorter delivery times were a bonus as was the better visibility bigger baggage area and I think the highlander has a wider cabin. And holy crap how can you not want to jump up and run all the way to steve henry hangar after seeing those vids. And just as I was ready to place a deposit on a highlander a buddy told me of a local guy building a S-21. I have about 2,000 PIC and the interior view of the all metal wing pushed me over the edge - super clean compared to wood and glue, may not be any better, but wow was the s-21 a clean build... The higher 1800 lb payload and 145 MPH speed with the 915 I am kinda thinking I have found my baby. The folding wing has zero value to me as I plan to build a hangar for it. Keep in mind this entire s-21 grin may flip in 5 seconds if I jump in something else before i place deposit. I would love the S7 or even a carbon cub but want tandem seating for more room. I was still very much interested in kitfox until I saw the palmer video of him and his new sidekick camera dude and they were "TIGHT" and much smaller than me. That single image of them dancing for shoulder placement had me pump the brakes with kitfox. Is there any model 8 coming out with wider cabin? How old is the model 7... is it time for a 7.1 model? Good luck wherever you end up.

[Shadowrider]

If they would put cabane gear shock monster and 29” ABW I would consider building one.

[mrpilotron]

I am in the same boat... My top pick is always the last plane I saw...
Wow. That hits a little close to home. I have yet to check out a plane that flat-out turns me off. Some are more interesting than others, but just about every one of them fills my head with justifications for why that's the right one and then I start daydreaming of how I would use that airplane to adjust my lifestyle. If I had an RV-14, I would probably land at a lot of paved runways a long way from home. If I had a Kitfox, not all the runways would be paved and fewer of them would be a long way away. That's what makes choosing so hard: I would adjust to the airplane, no matter what choice I make so all of the choices look really good and I can't decide. I think they call this analysis paralysis. Is this why some people end up building 5 or 10 airplanes?

[kitfoxrk]

I think they call this analysis paralysis. Is this why some people end up building 5 or 10 airplanes?

It's also why some end up building nothing!

Bob

[taff]

It took me 5 years to construct my Classic IV (I was working at the time)
It took me over 17 years to build my plans build Skybolt. (between work and retirement)

I was not building to fly. I was building to build, that was my hobby and I loved it! (and you better love it or it never gets completed)
Over the construction time your reasons for your flying dreams may change over those years.

In our dreams, what was once very short take offs on mountain ledges may become to real docile flat black top surfaces as we get older.
Of course your choice / decision is based on the NOW

The crazy thing is...No sooner than I completed the Skybolt we moved down to Florida. I sold the home at the airpark and I never flew the Skybolt.
Life is unbelievably strange !

[Maverick]

This might help. This was presented earlier this week but, I think you can watch the recording.
Webinar- Building an Aircraft - What You Need to Knowhttps://eaa.org/videos/6226408033001

[PapuaPilot]

This might help. This was presented earlier this week but, I think you can watch the recording.
Webinar- Building an Aircraft - What You Need to Know

https://eaa.org/videos/6226408033001

https://emojipedia-us.s3.dualstack.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thumbs/60/google/110/thumbs-up-sign_1f44d.png

Yes, all of the sessions were recorded.

[Floatplanes]

I myself am in a position where I'm super young (26) and my lack of flying over the last 2 years was half because of cost, distance from a place to rent, and lack of flexibility when it comes to renting from a school, and half because it took me a long time to get my medical back after having to prove I was worthy of my ticket.
What this means for me is that I want my own plane because I'm tired of being told when and where I can fly and I simultaneously want to cut some costs (obviously in trade for others). Having the ability to fly off airport means I can take my plane just about anywhere I would normally drive, it means when me and the wife buy our forever home with a little land, I can build an airstrip.
All that to say, I'm in the middle of the analysis paralysis too trying to figure out what plane to get and whether to build or buy an older one. I know I want to keep it experimental to save on maintenance as I'm fully capable on that front. Mr you know who really makes the kitfox seem like the way to go but I know there's a number of comparable models like the Avid, Just Aircraft, A couple of Rans models, Ridge Runner, and Eurofox, some of which are discontinued and there's only old ones left but then comes where to find them and whether a new build might actually be worth the price tag. The concept of building though does seem overwhelming as an on my own kind of task.

Moral of the story is, I have no wise words to offer as I'm in a similar position!

[Eric Page]

The concept of building though does seem overwhelming as an on my own kind of task.
I can't help you choose the right plane, but I can sympathize with this sentiment. I felt much the same way when I first brought my second-hand project home. It's an enormous task, and I had no idea where to start. So it sat for more than a month while I hesitated and wondered what to do. Finally I heeded the advice I'd been given, took it all apart and started making repairs. Now I've reached the point where I'm mostly in assembly mode. Just eat the elephant one bite at a time, and eventually you'll be flying. Every minute of work on the build gets you a minute closer to having a plane that you built with your own hands.

[dmarinus]

I was in a similar position as you (deciding between Kitfox and RV-12) and ended up going with the RV. For me it was these things that ultimately made me decide:

1: Construction. I hope this doesn't come off as offensive, but the best and simplest way to describe the two kits is hte RV is a Lego kit, while the Kitfox is more an arts and crafts project. Most days where I'm done working on the plane, I wash my hands and I'm ready for dinner. The Kitfox is just a lot "messier" with all the sanding, glues & fabric covering involved.

2: Space: I don't have a hangar yet, so I'm building at home. I have a small 1-car garage and can just about build the various sub components there (empennage, horizontal stab, one wing at a time) before moving them into an off-site storage facility. For the Kitfox wings you really need one of those rotissaries and that would be difficult to fit into my available space.

3: Waitlist. Kitfox had about a 16 month wait time, while the first RV subkit was only 4 weeks out. With my current schedule I'll have completed the RV before the Kitfox kit would have even shown up.

The beauty of all these planes is that the factory wait list for a new one is half a decade plus, so if you ever change your mind and want to (also) build the other one it's easy to sell and you'll definitely get your financial investment back. Just don't do the calculation on what your hourly wage turns out to be when doing that. :-)

[Maquis]

Wow. That hits a little close to home. I have yet to check out a plane that flat-out turns me off. Some are more interesting than others, but just about every one of them fills my head with justifications for why that's the right one and then I start daydreaming of how I would use that airplane to adjust my lifestyle. If I had an RV-14, I would probably land at a lot of paved runways a long way from home. If I had a Kitfox, not all the runways would be paved and fewer of them would be a long way away. That's what makes choosing so hard: I would adjust to the airplane, no matter what choice I make so all of the choices look really good and I can't decide. I think they call this analysis paralysis. Is this why some people end up building 5 or 10 airplanes?
Build one at a time. You could order both kits at the same time, and with the differential on delivery, you'll have one almost done before the other shows up? The kits have value, and you could sell either one to another builder/buyer at any point in the process, likely for a little more than you spent.
Personally, the sort of perseverating you describe I think of as, "Torturing myself." As in, I think I will torture myself for another few weeks trying to make a decision. Yeah, it builds character...