Oratex over polyfiber

[Freedom2]

Want ask if someone out there has experience with BOTH Oratex and Polyfiber in regards to the applying process from start to finish?? Me personally have only experience with polyfiber and sometimes we humans tend to go with what we are familiar with. I have done soooo much reading of everyones builds using Oratex and the process seems tricky but of course faster and a simpler process. This is why I ask this question, does Oratex extra costs, weight savings and everything else it offers outweigh what polyfiber has to offer??? Any comments is MUCHLY appreciated!

Freedom2

[alexM]

While I consider Polyfiber to be the benchmark by which all other covering systems can be measured, my project came with a big roll of Oratex. A plane expertly covered in the traditional systems is a thing of beauty, and if you're used to looking at museum quality planes the Oratex won't look pretty (up close anyway).

But it's tough material and it is hands down the lightest covering system out there, with a lot less variation from plane to plane (doesn't depend on how many coats of goo the user applies).

Regarding the cost of Oratex, I don't need to buy a spray booth, HVLP setup, respirator, Tyvek suits, etc. I don't even have the space to set up one of those inflatable spray booths, so I would need to rent space somewhere to do it. I think if you're starting from ground zero I don't know that it is more expensive.

Beyond the appearance up close (like reading glasses distance), the detractors of Oratex seem to have experience with the other covering systems and are disappointed when the same techniques don't work.

[tracstarr]

Just want to add a bit extra here. I've only used Oratex so can't compare. That said, Oratex is now coming out with a new paintable product. It's a base layer oratex material with the same easy to apply methods but is designed to be painted. I don't know much more though.

I agree though that currently if you want that "show room floor" perfect look, Oratex won't give you that per say (without a lot of additional pre cover work) - and it's not going to be the same. But, if you want simplicity and don't want to deal with chemicals, painting, renting or making a booth or care too much about that up close perfect paint job - then it's the way to go IMO. But I only have experience watching others with poly.

[buckchop]

I have done both Oratex and Poly systems, last time i did Poly i swore id never do it again, damm stink i tell u. In my opinion the Oratex is better, lighter, stronger, faster, and i got to do a test like not many other would get to do, a real teary eye test, Hahahahaaa, and im doing the Oratex 6000 again as i write on the ‘47 pa12. Also i took the 3 day Oratex class (along with about 12-15 others i invited to my shop) that they had offered me to get people interested in Oratex in Fairbanks my shop in Ester.
Soooo i guess if u have some questions fire them away, ill answer best i can, also Better Aircraft Fabric has their own application book with better hints and info from real world installers. Side note i had never done a complete fabric job prior to the Oratex class, but have done lot now in both systems, and also had some experience with Stewards water born also, that stuff is a waste of time and money there.
Also the two systems r NOT the same in application heat ranges, anchoring, wrapping, sealing, or the tools u use. That is where some people run into trouble, and have problems with the fabric down the road, overheating the fabric and glue is easy to do, and is the worst thing u could do, it looks ok, pulls ok, but WILL come off, same as Poly will, the computerized heat gun and iron r ur best friend, (hell u can solder copper tube with the heat gun the instructions say.
The Oratex salesman is not tryin to sell more items, their heatgun, and iron is well worth the purchase to have.

[jiott]

I have no experience at all with Oratex but I have one serious doubt about it that only time (about 20 years) will answer. That is the UV protection. The Polyfiber system has you put on 3 cross coats (that's 6 coats) of the UV protecting silver Polyspray until no light shows thru with a 60 watt bulb on the other side to give the all-important protection against UV rotting the fabric. Oratex claims built-in UV protection, but we all know that a finished plane covered with Oratex show light thru it similar to the old tissue and balsa models I made as a kid (slight exaggeration here). How can their "built-in" UV protection be much good with that much light transmissibility? Polyfiber is well proven for about 20 year+ life. Oratex hasn't proved much beyond a few years, so in my opinion the jury will still be out for quite a few years to come. FWIW

[jrevens]

I have no experience at all with Oratex but I have one serious doubt about it that only time (about 20 years) will answer. That is the UV protection. The Polyfiber system has you put on 3 cross coats (that's 6 coats) of the UV protecting silver Polyspray until no light shows thru with a 60 watt bulb on the other side to give the all-important protection against UV rotting the fabric. Oratex claims built-in UV protection, but we all know that a finished plane covered with Oratex show light thru it similar to the old tissue and balsa models I made as a kid (slight exaggeration here). How can their "built-in" UV protection be much good with that much light transmissibility? Polyfiber is well proven for about 20 year+ life. Oratex hasn't proved much beyond a few years, so in my opinion the jury will still be out for quite a few years to come. FWIW

Just a few quick quick thoughts about that, Jim... I don't know how much this actually means to anyone worrying about being able to see light through Oratex and the UV "issue", but consider if you will that you can see pretty darn well through sunglasses, many of which filter 100% of UV -A&B. There are also colorless liquid protectants like 303 that block UV rays quite effectively.

I've had test strips of my white Oratex 6000 hanging outside, directly facing South, at an elevation of 5700 ' msl, 24 hrs. a day, 365 days a year for 6 years now. They've been exposed to rain, snow and more days of high-intensity sunshine than experienced by most other parts of the U.S. They have slightly discolored, possibly somewhat from air-pollution (this is Denver) but seem to be a strong as new... at least I can't tear them. I figure that this kind of exposure is probably at least equal to 20 or more years of a normal airplane's life, especially if it is hangared (as most of our Kitfoxes are).

[Danzer1]

I have no experience at all with Oratex but I have one serious doubt about it that only time (about 20 years) will answer. That is the UV protection. The Polyfiber system has you put on 3 cross coats (that's 6 coats) of the UV protecting silver Polyspray until no light shows thru with a 60 watt bulb on the other side to give the all-important protection against UV rotting the fabric. Oratex claims built-in UV protection, but we all know that a finished plane covered with Oratex show light thru it similar to the old tissue and balsa models I made as a kid (slight exaggeration here). How can their "built-in" UV protection be much good with that much light transmissibility? Polyfiber is well proven for about 20 year+ life. Oratex hasn't proved much beyond a few years, so in my opinion the jury will still be out for quite a few years to come. FWIW

Oratex has been used in Europe since 2002 or 2003 - quite a few more than "a few years". I have not heard of any UV protection complaints or issues to date.

Thought to ponder: Most sunglasses these days have UVA and B protection of 99.9 to 100% and I can see through them pretty well (light transmissibility), much easier than I can through Oratex! Hmmm - think about it.

Also not seen mentioned here yet - Oratex can be peeled back if repairs or access are necessary and re-applied in lieu of full replacement.

If we all waited 20+ years for something to be "proven", innovation and progress would be stifled by around I'd say.....20+ years!

I think the question really comes down to: Do you like the look of unpainted Oratex (if you're going to paint it, you're not really saving anything) or are you comfortable doing lots of painting and will be satisfied with those results? Either will serve the utilitarian purpose.

[avidflyer]

Another thing to possibly consider with the UV blocking may be this. If you do the 3 cross coats that Polyfiber requires for the full amount of UV protection, the plane can probably sit outside for 30 years and the fabric should still be good. My Kitfox and Avid Flyer never go out of the hangar except to fly, and probably that is likely true for most Kitfox owners. Certainly very few leave their planes parked outside long term. That all being said, how much UV protection is really needed? Maybe it's not that big of an issue?? JImChuk

[jiott]

Interesting responses. The sunglasses comment is interesting and probably very valid. If there are clear liquids that can filter out all UV, I wonder why Polyfiber doesn't use something like that instead of 6 coats of silver Polyspray?
Has Oratex really been used on aircraft in Europe since 2002 or 2003? If so I wasn't aware of that and stand corrected. I am aware of its use on RC models (used it myself) since at least 2018, probably earlier.
I was only giving my personal, probably old-fashioned, doubts about Oratex; not really suggesting that a new product be tested for 20 years before being offered, especially in our experimental world.

[jrevens]

Interesting responses. The sunglasses comment is interesting and probably very valid. If there are clear liquids that can filter out all UV, I wonder why Polyfiber doesn't use something like that instead of 6 coats of silver Polyspray?
Has Oratex really been used on aircraft in Europe since 2002 or 2003? If so I wasn't aware of that and stand corrected. I am aware of its use on RC models (used it myself) since at least 2018, probably earlier.
I was only giving my personal, probably old-fashioned, doubts about Oratex; not really suggesting that a new product be tested for 20 years before being offered, especially in our experimental world.

Oratex started out making model covering systems first. I believe (I might be wrong) that the product sold for our aircraft, at least the 6000, isn’t the same product as that used on models. It is a polyester fabric, like Ceconite, PolyFiber, etc., but a different formulation and weave. It has a considerably higher safe and usable temperature range and supposedly has greater puncture and tear resistance.

[jrevens]

... If there are clear liquids that can filter out all UV, I wonder why Polyfiber doesn't use something like that instead of 6 coats of silver Polyspray? ...

Those products have to be periodically re-applied, but I just mentioned it to note that there are other ways to block UV than silver paint. The 303 Aerospace Protectant would also basically eliminate the possibility of any paint being applied afterwards... it is very slippery and really gets into the surface.

[motortommy]

after receiving some sample fabric (silver) I also will most probably go with Oratex...
Maybe interesting read for some of you: https://www.lanitz-aviation.com/certificates.html

[4Hummer]

Oratex for sure. Once it's applied you're DONE. The Poly-Fiber system your not even half way there.

Nope First you brush on poly brush and stink up the place with toxic MEK,
then Spray on a few coats of poly bush (more stink, more MEK)
than spray a few coats of poly UV blocker (Yup more stink and MEK poisoning)
wet sand
Spray more UV blocker, (more MEK.... And by now your loathing the clean up process... which uses yup MEK the toxic stuff that will kill you)
wet sand
repeat the above a few more times..... and wonder to yourself why all the grass and animals are dying around your painting area..
wet sand
coat of colour. (you no longer have finger prints left as they have been melted off by the MEK)
wet sand
another coat of colour,
wet sand polish
Final coat of Colour (By now you have killed half your brain cells, and made yourself to retarded to fly... thanks to the MEK)
wet sand
realize you just spent WEEKS painting and sanding, And swear next time your switching to Oratex

[Freedom2]

WoW!!!! I didn't realize at the time of posting this thread it would drum up some pretty good response! Thx everyone for their two bits worth and some really good points made by everyone!! The last comment by 4Hummer made go back into memory lane(1994) the last time I did the poly fiber system and yes it is a toxic and sticky process that no doubt affects the human body in one way or the other. Also when i did the poly fiber I remember the most stupid mistake I made. I chose ( lack of knowledge) after doing a pretty good job up to the poly spray, not to use a paint booth and instead pick a day that was good conditions weather wise. WRONG!! My point is all the work messed up by a terrible paint job. So I'm definitely seeing the benefits of Oratex and yes Alexm, I do wonder if the end cost is that much more not to mention the time it saves! Oh forgot, our time is not worth anything!haha. Love that idea of putting a sample piece of Oratex out in the extremes of mother nature and put it to the test. Like you said, 6 years is probably equivalent to at least 20 years of a real life scenario of a typical kitfox! Well, back to the books and you tube for more education on a new cover system for me. Wished I was near Fairbanks for that course!

Freedom2

[alexM]

I've seen multiple references to the Better Fabric book and the training class but I've been all over their website and don't see either one mentioned. I would buy that book in a heartbeat and jump at the chance for the 3 day course before I start covering.

I would appreciate any links or direction for those resources.

Regarding the 20-30 year life span of the conventional polyester fabric systems (like Polyfiber): As an owner of a '65 Citabria last covered in '87 I'm a strong believer in keeping fabric planes in a hangar. I can embrace the fact that the fabric can make it 30 years outside (many A&Ps will tell you that punch testing polyester fabric isn't a valid test since it will always pass).

But never mind the UV damage - It's the water ingress that bothers me. "Traditional" rag and tube planes tend to have lots of places for water to get in. Around the fuel fillers, tail access covers, penetrations for antennas and lights, boot cowl, windshield. The wing joint seems like an afterthought hastily covered with ill fitting sheet metal. For the Kitfox you can add the turtle deck hinge and that folding wing joint.

Water always follows Civil Engineering Rule #1 (s*** goes down hill) so a plane left parked outside will have standing water attacking the lower fuselage longerons, pooling around wood pieces, creeping into all those fastener joints where we have dissimilar metals.

Sure my Citabria has lots of grommets but that really just assures that the plane doesn't form a 20 gallon udder after a heavy storm. I'm not afraid to fly my plane in the rain or park it outside for a day or two while I'm on a XC trip but leaving it tied down outside makes me cringe.

[Clark in AZ]

I used Oratex on my SuperSTOL and would do it again in a heartbeat.

This alone sold me on Oratex...


https://youtu.be/nOZ7EiPovSA

When I think of Poly Fiber I think Hindenburg. Fire is my worst nightmare in flight. So, I love that Oratex is self extinguishing or at least close. If Poly Fiber catches fire you're in trouble. In any case, I have a chance of surviving a fire in flight with Oratex.

Another factor was the toughness.

You can't do this with Poly Fiber...


https://youtu.be/yoI5PEIxtEg

Check out all the other advantages of this stuff...

https://betteraircraftfabric.com/advantages.html

YMMV,

Clark

[buckchop]

Call them up in Anchorage at Better Aircraft fabric and ask about the book, usually it giving out with THEIR sale of the fabric to THEIR customers. The Class was offererd to me cause i bought fabric and had no experience and they was try to promote the fabric some more in Fairbanks that was in 2017.
If this site was easier for a none computer guy to use to post pic id show u guys some pic of the installs ive done, the aftermath of the Oratex from the 30x50 steel hanger roof that squashed the 47 pa12 and 4 of our hotrods/muscle cars, with 1hr of flyin time on new build, bent it like u cant even dream up, totally unbeliveable if u cn it, and there was only 1 rip in the fabric on the whole plane. First time ive ever cn my 82yr old Dad cry in my 50yrs, and i did lots mysef.
Soooooo here i am again rebuilding the rebuild.

[109JB]

When I think of Poly Fiber I think Hindenburg. Fire is my worst nightmare in flight. So, I love that Oratex is self extinguishing or at least close. If Poly Fiber catches fire you're in trouble. In any case, I have a chance of surviving a fire in flight with Oratex.



Lets stick with true facts...Polyfiber does not burn. That video was likely nitrate or butyrate dope.

[taff]

Lets stick with true facts...Polyfiber does not burn. That video was likely nitrate or butyrate dope.

I'm 100% with you.

And if we look at the PolyFiber manual, they say there is no dope in Polyfiber.
Why do people still call it dope? Tough to get the old vocabulary out of the way.

Can you even buy dope these days?
Another question. If you cover with Oratex, can you reinforce tape and rib lace?

[bumsteer]

As far as rib stitching and reinforcing tape, yes. Depending on what aircraft you're covering, it may not be required.

Rick

[jrevens]

... Another question. If you cover with Oratex, can you reinforce tape and rib lace?

Yep... regardless of what is recommended or "allowed", I'm one who thinks it's a good idea. I have exactly the same opinion about any of the other conventional covering systems.

[taff]

Yep... regardless of what is recommended or "allowed", I'm one who thinks it's a good idea. I have exactly the same opinion about any of the other conventional covering systems.

Nice work!

I like the photos, shows good detail.

Does Oratex have available a reinforcing tape ?

I know the ribs of the Kitfox cap strips are wide as compared to the 1/4" cap strips that are used with wooden wings.
Lacing shows a lot more insurance against fabric peel under lift load.

[Denalifox]

Nice work!

I like the photos, shows good detail.

Does Oratex have available a reinforcing tape ?

I know the ribs of the Kitfox cap strips are wide as compared to the 1/4" cap strips that are used with wooden wings.
Lacing shows a lot more insurance against fabric peel under lift load.

They don't have reinforcing tape however you can use the traditional 1/2" tape for all covering systems. I just rib stitched my STi in Oratex. I also used waxed Lacing. I stripped all the wax off and encapsulated it in the glue before laying down the 2" tapes. Zero issues.

[bbs428]

I had a lot of experience with Solartex with 1/3 rc planes. Loved it. As long as you liked the matte finish, which in scale ww1/ww2 warbirds was nbd.

In my case I already had the fabric that came with the kit. I never have worked with Polyfiber before. After splurging on G3x avionics and other stuff, it was hard to pull the trigger on the Oratex. But adding it all up, the chi-com paint booth, the 5 stage sprayer/paint sys., self contained air system, and the chemicals/Aerothane paint - I'm about @ $5000.00. The Polyfiber manual was easy to understand and all my "mistakes" were easily addressed. I have prior experience painting several cars and boats in polyurethane and two part acrylic enamels. I already had all the safety equipment.

I'll be able to reuse all this equipment painting my two older classic cars. I'll sell the lot of it down the road to recoup even more of the costs.

[patrick.hvac]

I've seen multiple references to the Better Fabric book and the training class but I've been all over their website and don't see either one mentioned. I would buy that book in a heartbeat and jump at the chance for the 3 day course before I start covering.

I would appreciate any links or direction for those resources.




I have an Oratex application manual that details instructions for installation. Not sure if that's what you're looking for? It's from Lanitz (the Parent of Oratex) not BAF though. It can be found here: https://www.lanitz-aviation.com/downloads
Hope that helps.

[jrevens]

...

Does Oratex have available a reinforcing tape ? ...

Like Denalifox said, the common reinforcing tape is used. Two strips of the 1/2” wide tape, placed side-by-side.

[109JB]

So I for one cannot believe the weight savings claims for Oratex so I cut a 12" x 12" piece of the polyfiber covering off of my horizontal stabilizer of my project airplane. This airplane is a Kitfox 4 that flew for 20 years and this is the actual fabric from that formerly flying airplane that was finished through white. The finish appears to be about a minimum number of coats but you definitely can't see light through it, so is not too few coats. That 1 sq ft of fabric that incidentally also had 2 12"x2" tapes that were over the stabilizer ribs and the fabric including those tapes weighed 0.75 ounces. I then calculated the area of fabric actually on the airplane in my CAD program. The total area of fabric actually on a kitfox 4 works out to 320 sq ft broken out as follows:

Wings 4 panels (top and bottom) at 46 sq ft each = 184 sq ft
fuselage top aft of turtledeck = 8 sq ft
fuselage bottom = 28 sq ft
fuselage sides including fin and rudder 2 pieces = 33 sq ft x 2 = 66 sq ft
horizontal and elevator (top and bottom) = 17 sq ft x 2 = 34 sq ft

total fabric area = 320 sq ft

320 x 0.75 oz/sq ft = 240 ounces = 15 pounds.

Now lets be conservative and say that with overlaps and tapes we bump that up 10% for a total fabric weight of 16.5 pounds using polyfiber with minimum coatings.

Now lets compare to oratex. Their website says the Oratex 6000 fabric weighs 0.459 – 0.524 oz/ft² so lets use 0.5 oz/ft2.

320 x 0.5 oz/sq ft = 160 ounces = 10 pounds, and if we add that same 10% factor it comes in at 11 pounds. Weight savings = 5.5 pounds.

for Oratex 600 which they claim is 0.301 – 0.4 oz/ft², using 0.35 oz/sq ft:

320 x 0.35 = 112 oz = 7 pounds, then the 10 % makes it 7.7 pounds. Weight savings = 8.8 pounds

So while there is obviously weight savings that can be gained using oratex it is not the wild claims of 20-30 pounds unless you are comparing to a polyfiber finish with way more coats than necessary. The finish that was on my project airplane was what I would consider a utility amount of cover and aesthetically I would rate it at least as good as the oratex airplanes I have seen.

This post was mainly to debunk the wild weight savings claims, but I'll give a little more on my decision for how I will cover my project Kitfox IV rebuild.

I myself considered Oratex even though I am not a fan of the finish appearance but the cost was too much. I have covered the fuselage of my Sonerai with the complete polyfiber process and then recovered it after some modifications with a hybrid polyfiber/latex system. I have actually decided to cover my Kitfox project with polyester fabric, using the latex method described at http://www.wienerdogaero.com/Latex.php. My Sonerai fuselage is now covered through silver with polyfiber with a latex color coat (white) and it looks fantastic and has had the latex on it for about 5 years now and looks as good as the day I applied it. I'm opting to go the full latex route for essentially no toxicity and also for lower cost. I have all the materials for covering except the latex and figure I will have about $1500 in covering and paint materials when done.

[jrevens]

So I for one cannot believe the weight savings claims for Oratex so I cut a 12" x 12" piece of the polyfiber covering off of my horizontal stabilizer of my project airplane. ...

Hi John,

This issue has been beaten to death on this forum. "Highwing" did a very good analysis quite a while ago, and the info is all here (somewhere). So, here's the issue, from my perspective, with your analysis (and it's a great analysis!)... a Poly Fiber, or any painted system, is potentially an extremely variable job (weight wise). The biggest variables are the type of paint used and the number and thickness of the coats applied, of course. Yours sounds like a pretty light job and not necessarily typical of the average, especially if urethane paint is used. With Oratex you can know pretty exactly what you'll have, every time. The bottom line is that you will save weight with it, but the amount is definitely variable due to the variability of the painted finish it is being compared to. Here is information that came directly from Poly Fiber's website (Frequently Asked Questions) -


"When Cubs rolled off the line, they had 75 pounds of Grade A cotton and dope on them.

A Ceconite and dope finish on that same Cub will probably weigh about 50 to 60 pounds.

A Cub done in Poly-Fiber has 40 to 45 pounds of finish weight.

A Cub done in urethane can get pretty heavy if you lay on the thick coats. Urethane is not known for its light weight.

Ultralights can be done in as little as 12 to 15 pounds."


I've had experience with both covering systems and chose Oratex for several reasons... one that may not be real obvious is that I wanted to try something new. I think I was one of the very first to document my use of it on this forum. It's definitely not for everyone, but it is lighter and stronger.

[jrevens]

Just one further point that I meant to make... the 20 or 25 lb. weight savings touted by Oratex are obviously at the "top" of the estimates for marketing purposes. Maybe more importantly, those figures are referring (I believe) to your basic Piper Cub which is a bit bigger than our Kitfoxes, and are possibly based on those numbers that I listed from Poly Fiber - specifically, "A Cub done in Poly-Fiber has 40 to 45 pounds of finish weight." and "A Cub done in urethane can get pretty heavy if you lay on the thick coats. Urethane is not known for its light weight."

[little rocket]

Any one tried this finish https://www.hipecaircraftcoatings.com/

High Performance Aircraft CoatingsNo Ribstitching. No Rivets. No Tapes. Fewer Coats.
Substantial labour savings over other Fabric Aircraft Covering Systemhttps://www.hipecaircraftcoatings.com/