Backup instruments

[Hawkertech]

I've been watching a bunch of YouTube videos, Trent Palmer, and others. They all have the electronic panels, but as far as I can see no backup instruments, I have always been taught, and if you look at any airliner they have backup steam gauges just in case, I am considering having some of I build, still kicking around that idea.

[Hawkertech]

I should have also said,vevery corporate jet with glass cockpits that I have worked on have backup instruments.

[airlina]

Really not necessary on a VFR Kitfox , even if every instrument should fail (for instance your single EFIS dies) a competent Kitfox pilot should have no problem getting safely on the ground using visual references only, and this event would be a inconvenience (or should be) not an emergency. The Kitfox is not a great platform to make it IFR. Bruce N199CL

[efwd]

if you are considering the reliability of the two systems, what you really have is the EFIS as the backup to your steam gauges.

[jiott]

I agree totally with airlina.
I believe it has been shown that solid state, no moving parts, instruments are far more reliable and long lived that steam gauges; if they don't fail early on, they will probably last a very long time.

[flyby]

As a whole, an EFIS is much more reliable than say, a vacuum pump. Depends what failure you are looking for redundancy against.

If you are worried about power failure, then a TCW Avionics Backup Battery or dual batteries is a redundancy. If its an ADHRS failure, then many systems support dual flight computers, or an additional backup like a Garmin G5 works great. Sometimes failures are not a function of the units, but how they were installed (incorrect wiring or installation placement). Many modern aircraft don't have steam backups anymore (backups are even electronic).

I'm building a non-Kitfox experimental and plan a solid IFR platform. Dual G3X screens, Dual GSU flight computers, Dual G5s, all backed up with a TCW backup battery and dual alternators. For complete failure, I need to lose 2 alternators, 4 batteries, 4 AHRS sources, or have something catasrophic happen, like a fire. If it gets to that point then the avionics failure just became a lower priority.

But, fun thing with experimental - do what you want!

[Dave S]

I'd also throw my hat in the ring with airlina. We can each learn to safely handle a Kitfox looking out the window - good skills to have in any airplane.

Reliability is a crap shoot - IMHO

The vast majority of airborne failures I have had involved things containing moving electrons and semiconductors. That was true with rental planes I have used and is still true with our kitfox. The 10 year body count of dead electronic stuff on the KF (all which was new when installed) includes strobe transformer, GPS (which was kind enough to wait to die till the manufacturer no longer supported it), connectors for GPS #2 (replaced under warranty) encoder, Ignition modules, ADS-B (which the manufacturer very kindly and responsibly replaced at no cost)

Vacuum instruments are far more reliable than what powers them ( the pathetic engine driven mechanical pumps)

Electric gyros can be quite reliable but are dependent on ship's power which can be the weak link

The most reliable instrument in the cockpit is a plain old whiskey compass. Using it accurately is again a matter of study, and practice.

I think we can count on our eyes out the window and on the compass for the necessary and most fool proof backup instruments, at least for a Kitfox:).

[PapuaPilot]

I built mine pretty much for day/VFR and have no backup for the G3X because I too feel that one should be able to get the plane safely on the ground without any instruments. I don't have a magnetic compass either, FAR 91.205 says you need a "magnetic direction indicator", not a compass as many think.

Actually I have backup instruments with the iPad. I use the Garmin Pilot app, it has a page with an "instrument" panel that gives GPS based altitude and ground speed. It also has a heading indicator that shows ground track.

If I wanted a better backup I would probably get the Garmin G5.

[109JB]

Your cell phone can make a pretty good backup with any number of cheap apps. While it can't give you airspeed, it can give you GPS ground speed and that is close enough to get on the ground. Plenty of apps to show speed, altitude, even efis type displays.

The other thing you can do is buy a Stratus and it will give you an AHRS system that can play on your iPad, iPhone, or Android device and have ADS-B in.

I also agree that a competent pilot should be able to get one on the ground without any flight instruments whatsoever. I have practiced this on all of the airplanes I have owned. The Kitfox is on the low end of that spectrum and the Twin Comanche was the highest performing I have owned. I do it with another CFI who can monitor things while I fly circuits without being able to see the ASI or altimeter.

[desertdave]

23,000 hour airline guy here. My Kitfox has very basic VFR instruments and it is more than what I need. Honestly, a compass, airspeed indicator and an altimeter will get you anywhere with a paper map. An iPad and Foreflight will more than get you anywhere and spoon feed you every bit of information you would ever require. No Kitfox has deicing capability so why would you even think about putting yourself in that type of situation. and Iced up wing on a 750ish pound airplane would turn into an NTSB hearing in a New York minute.
Save your money and save the weight. Use your iPad and think of all the beer you could buy with that backup instrumentation money.

[Meyer]

I am following what all the others said.

If I was forced to the next step, I would do a G5.

With all that said, I guess if it helps you sleep better put a couple of steam gauges in. I'll spend that money on beer (and tacos).

[neville]

My SS7 with Rotax 912iS has one characteristic that after 280 hr. of flight time has demonstrated one issue that prompted me to install one back up device. The engine will overspeed in a heart beat ( 5800 is max RPM). That coupled with a Rotax operating parameter that max continuous cruise rpm is limited to 5500 RPM, caused me to install an optical prop RPM sensor with a table converting prop RPM to engine RPM. I agree that any pilot should be able to fly an aircraft VFR with no instruments. But with the normal high engine RPM it is difficult to judge engine speed by sound alone.

[PaulSS]

I wish I'd known now what I thought I knew a couple of years ago. Back then I was going to kit build my Eurofox under LAA regulations. This requires backup instruments and, if you're going to use electronic backup instruments, they have to have their own backup power. With this in mind I bought the Funke BFI57. It's a great bit of kit for getting you on the ground very safely and can easily be used as a primary instrument for a microlight etc. As it was, I ended up going down the 'microlight' route in order that my aircraft could be factory-built (in the UK). There is no requirement for backup instruments in this case. If I knew I'd have been doing that in the first place I would have had a 10" EFIS and that would have been it. Like others have stated, it is not difficult to safely fly a light aircraft such as the Eurofox/Kitfox by looking out of the window.

Learn from my mistakes and don't buy your avionics too early. I have so many redundant (expensive) parts now that it is silly; all because I'm impatient and like to get gadgets immediately I see them. Sit on your hands and wait until the last minute so you can see what you REALLY want and can get the latest, greatest and (maybe) cheapest nearer the time you need them.

It's a good bit of kit but expensive and (unfortunately) a bit surplus to requirements. I've got the hole in the panel now so it will be fitted :D

https://funkeavionics.de/en/products/displays/bfi57

[Slyfox]

23,000 hour airline guy here. My Kitfox has very basic VFR instruments and it is more than what I need. Honestly, a compass, airspeed indicator and an altimeter will get you anywhere with a paper map. An iPad and Foreflight will more than get you anywhere and spoon feed you every bit of information you would ever require. No Kitfox has deicing capability so why would you even think about putting yourself in that type of situation. and Iced up wing on a 750ish pound airplane would turn into an NTSB hearing in a New York minute.
Save your money and save the weight. Use your iPad and think of all the beer you could buy with that backup instrumentation money.
maybe not beer, but for sure fuel for my next flight. :). I have no plans to use an efis on my kitfox. will always have steam. basic mind you. I agree all way on, "why would you want to fly into icing conditions with a kitfox", so true. On my RV I have a dynon d180 although a very good system, it does have it's problem, I also have an altitude, airspeed on steam and I have a rpm gauge (constant speed prop) . One of my problems is when it is real cold like 5 degrees the dynon won't fire up. I haven't called dynon on this for I don't fly very much when it's that cold. but because I have the important gauges in steam, I just go fly, a few minutes with good heat in the plane the dynon fires up. I always have in the back of my mind someday the whole system is going to fail inflight, my thought, who cares, I can still fly the plane. One last note, maybe I'm old school, but take off and landing is always by the dial. In other words my eyes go right to the steam gauges.

[Shadowrider]

Steve I used to think the same way. Steam gauges you can tell your speed without even looking at them based on location of the needle using your peripheral vision. Then I started flying glass and never looked back. Of course that is applies to IFR flying as your scan is reduced and more information compacted in front of you. VFR flying I still like glass but not as easy to tell airspeed looking out the window using just peripheral vision. Of course I am really liking the garmin AOA and just having the noise is super helpful. On final I am not looking at airpeed but listening to it. Of course when I get more time I will be able to feel it better and not listen or look. These kitfox still make me cringe on final as I feel like I am almost going backwards they are so slow. :)

[Slyfox]

Steve I used to think the same way. Steam gauges you can tell your speed without even looking at them based on location of the needle using your peripheral vision. Then I started flying glass and never looked back. Of course that is applies to IFR flying as your scan is reduced and more information compacted in front of you. VFR flying I still like glass but not as easy to tell airspeed looking out the window using just peripheral vision. Of course I am really liking the garmin AOA and just having the noise is super helpful. On final I am not looking at airpeed but listening to it. Of course when I get more time I will be able to feel it better and not listen or look. These kitfox still make me cringe on final as I feel like I am almost going backwards they are so slow. :)
once I'm flying along my attention in the rv goes right to the efis and the 696. so yes I see where you are coming from. in the kitfox, right out the window and stays there until I go to land. :)

[109JB]

Steam gauges are absolutely fine, but with EFIS you can get a lot of benefits.

1. Even though I don't consider a Kitfox an good IFR platform, an EFIS would be fantastic to have in case of an inadvertent IMC encounter.
2. A small EFIS is likely less weight than steam gauges depending on how many it replaces.
3. Some small EFIS systems are easier to connect than even steam gauges requiring only one static, one pitot, and a dc power connection.
4. An EFIS can take up less panel space leaving room for say a tablet running a moving map display and ADS-B in.
5. Some EFIS systems can also have the engine instruments incorporated.

I'm actually thinking about replacing my "steam" gauges in my Kitfox IV with a G5X.

[Hawkertech]

Thanks for all the info, couldn't respond sooner dw and I are on a cruise in Mexico. I wasn't so concerned about flying Imc as I was just an electrical or display failure. But If they are as reliable as everyone says I guess it's a non issue. Now to hijack my own thread, and just thinking ahead, what did you all do for painting or if you sprayed poly brush. Did you rent a spray booth or just plastic off your shop. That is several years out at my rate and working alone. I'll probably order a 7ss as soon as we get home. Can't wait to get flying again, it's been 30 years due to work and family obligations, we are now retired so time to start again. This will be my secons EAB, dad and I built an all metal Pazmany pl4. Which I never got to fly dad sold it with out letting me know.

[Hawkertech]

Well that is a bit dissapointing, 11/2 year wait for kit.

[efwd]

You can drop a thank you letter in the mail for Trent. As I understand it, when he started you tubing his videos the sales went up. I had to wait 6 months back in 2015.

[desertdave]

Well that is a bit dissapointing, 11/2 year wait for kit.


You can drop a thank you letter in the mail for Trent. As I understand it, when he started you tubing his videos the sales went up. I had to wait 6 months back in 2015.

In a another couple of years you can think him again when you can buy an untouched or just started kit for cheap when some of his viewers realize what they got themself into and want their garage space back. That is my plan for my retirement project plane build. I have seen it with AR rifles, Land Rover Defenders, Pappy Bourbon and now Kit Fox planes.

[Denalifox]

Nine months into a year wait for my STi. Actually glad i had this time to wait. Ive lurked on here daily and learned a TON. Stay tuned for my Alaskan S7 STi. Glad I ordered when I did!

[Hawkertech]

In a another couple of years you can think him again when you can buy an untouched or just started kit for cheap when some of his viewers realize what they got themself into and want their garage space back. That is my plan for my retirement project plane build. I have seen it with AR rifles, Land Rover Defenders, Pappy Bourbon and now Kit Fox planes.
That's what this is supposed to be, my retirement build. Wether I get to fly it or not is another story.