Possible Kitfox Flight Training in AL?

[Aeroengnr]

Hey everybody I am a new poster to the forums but have been quietly reading them as a guest. I intend to start flight school in the spring once the weather gets a little bit more comfortable around here. I have been fascinated with flight ever since I can remember and I'm in my senior year of college finishing my Aerospace Engineering degree. After countless hours of reviewing flight tests and airplane designs I have decided that the Kitfox fits what I think I want in a plane down to the T.

Now that the intro is out of the way I've got a few questions you guys might be able to answer for me. Are there any kitfox/(Kitfox clones) around the Northern Alabama/So. Tennessee areas that might be possible to get a ride in or any schools that are offering lessons in?

And secondly I am wanting to finish flight school and own my own plane before my intern is done (1 1/2 years). My budget is allowing around the 20 grand mark but I am pretty good in a shop and not opposed to working on a near finished or damaged plane. I guess my second question is what are some of the pros and cons of the different versions of the kitfox as their obvious designs dont seem to give me much of an idea of their different flight flaws/characteristics.

[SkyPirate]

welcome to the forum Aeroengnr,..

I don't think their are any flaws in the kitfox line for flight characteristics
it will all depend on your personal preferences ,..you build the plane to your specs ,..long wing or speedster,..65 HP or 100 plus HP,..tricycle or tail dragger,..bare bones or decked out ,..
I'm sure there is someone in your area you can hitch a ride with in a kitfox ,..that will convince you for sure

Chase

[Aeroengnr]

Thanks for the welcome! I may be guilty of looking at things a little to analytically haha. Probably a product of being forced to look over designs by teachers who wont ever set foot in an airplane not made by Boeing . What would be the best way of getting in touch with an owner of a Kitfox since I know that all of ya'll owners/builders seem to be a pretty friendly group that really likes promoting the design.

[SkyPirate]

Up on the kitfox forum tool bar is Community ,..click on that ,.and the bottom of the list is a members list ,..you could scroll thru the list and find someone close to you ,..look all the way to the right on their nickname ,..flying or intentions should be listed last, ..click on their name to go to their profile,..in their profile will be contact member by their name on the left side of the profile page ,,, click on that and choose your method of contacting them.
Some will have different options on how to contact them,..I ussually opt for e mail if it is listed.

Chase

[Pilot4Life]

Aeroengnr,
John McBean is also a great source to find a KF Nut in your area. He helped me to find some and he'd be glad to do the same for you, no doubt. He'll probably catch wind of this, seeing that he's a member of this forum as well. Just give it a day or two and you'll have the information you want. And yeah, Flying in a KF really will sink that hook in deeper.

[HighWing]

I find your questions insiteful. I am also a new poster on this forum. I built my first Kitfox, a Model IV from a factory kit I bought in 1993. I ruined it after 900 hours in a rather rough emergency landing two years ago and have been working on a previously owned but unfinished Model IV.

First, I can't help with the training and ride as I live in the west.

I do have some thoughts on some of the other questions. First off, althought there are no bad flight characteristics in the different models, there are differences. The early models have smaller tail surfaces, an undercambered wing and unsymmerical flaperons and their pilots learn a different flight skill set than those of the later models. Beginning with the Model IV-1200 the rudder was enlarged and both model IVs introduced a different wing design with higher speeds possible but sacrificing a bit of short field performance and a differential flaperon control system that reduced adverse yaw. Beginning with the Series 6 the flaperons were re-designed to reduce control sensitivity and increase control forces, to give a more solid feel and of course the later models were disigned for heavier payloads and are as a result, heavier from the get go (with the same wing).

Then there is the engine choices and their various issues - two cycle engines requiring more TLC in flight and on the ground, the auto conversions, usually heavier and affecting payload and performance, the certified engines with generally the same issues as the auto conversions and of course the Rotax 9XX series engines with their higher cost factor. There are passionate advocates for all the designs and modifications with valid arguments to support those choices.

The cost factor? Not sure how to help here, except to give my experience. My partially started kit with firewall forward came in at about $8500, I found a used 150 hour Rotax 912 UL - 80 HP for around $9,000. Add to that paint, Prop, radios, instruments, lights and misc. items, I expect to have maybe $23 or $24 thousand in the airplane (I figure I had about $30,000 in my first one. Time wise, it looks like maybe a year and a half taking off for goof off time added to the previous owner's time (I am mostly retired). The fact that I am building another Model IV with 912 gives away my personal preference.

Have fun.

[catz631]

Aeroengnr,
I own a Kitfox 4-1200 and live next to Pensacola ,Fl which would probably be about a 6 hour drive for you. I would be willing to take you for a ride in my plane plus show you all the "nuts and bolts' about it. The ride would of course depend on your size. I weigh about 230 so if you are a big guy(weight and height) the ride might not work (usefull load) . As you can see from the two pictures,I have done some modes to my aircraft to improve it
Dick Maddux
Milton,Fl

[cap01]

catz631, nice looking plane/paint job . noticed the tapered warpdrive . wondering if you flew it before the tapers and if much diff. mine has the square tips simply because they look cool
cap
kitfox IV 1050
912ul warpdrive
yelm, wa

[SkyPirate]

cap01 ,..not to jump in line here ,..but the square tips will pull slightly harder then the tapered tip,..I'd say about a 2 mph difference,..
from the ground ,,the squared tips are slightly louder then the tapered tips

Chase

[SkyPirate]

nice looking plane catz361,..what 's under the hood?

Chase

[Av8r3400]

Warp Drive props were a hot topic at the LEAF seminar this past summer at Airventure. The problem with the square tipped props is weight at the tip. The gyro forces of maneuvering combined with that tip weight can and does (according to LEAF) cause gearbox damage.

Just passing on what I have heard. Take it for what it is worth.

[SkyPirate]

I'll have to agree the square tip props are heavier ,..denser materials in the Warp then the IVO's.
A friend of mine and I ...I had the tapered tip 3 blade warp ,..he had the square tip 3 blade warp,..his pitch ended up slightly less then mine,..but he would slowly walk away from me,..we had identical aircraft identical motors identical reductions,..I could get off the ground faster then he could,..not sure if this was the prop or because he weighed in at 250 lbs more likely the weight I was 205 then ,..the good ole days

Chase

[catz631]

I bought the aircraft with the tapered tips on it so have no idea about the difference with square tips. Speaking of beauty,I am seriously concidering swaping props and going to the Kiev.Now that is a beauty ! All of the guys that own Highlanders seem to love it.
Dick

[catz631]

My 4 has a Rotax 912UL (225hrs). I have installed oil cooler and radiator shutters,electric elevator trim with switch on the stick, vg's, the new "bush" gear, and a host of other items. After these mods,I have cured all of the things that were bugging me about the aircraft. It now pretty much behaves like a "clipped wing" cub (faster roll and pitch of course) and is a real joy to fly.
Dick

[cap01]

catz631, great looking plane . the trim mod looks interesting . i removed the droop tips on mine and installed removable rounded ones .
ive also heard some good things about the keiv prop but being a product of the cold war/viet nam era i would rather not have anything from russia . if the squar tip warp does damage to the gearbox thats too high of a price to pay for looking cool , may have to get mine tapered .
cp

[jrthomas]

Hey Dick, where did you get those louvers? Also I have a new Kiev but my Speedster is no quite finished. Great looking prop. There's a lot of neat new stuff coming out of the Czech Republic, probably the top producer of new light sport aircraft who were occupied by the Soviets after being occupied by the ****s. James Thomas

[catz631]

I bought all my mods from Highwing LLC. Lowell puts out some high quality ,neat stuff that we need for our aircraft. I also have his low fuel warning system and his "throttle link". The throttle link allows me to pneumatically balance my carbs in about 30 sec after I have the hoses setup. You just turn a knob in the cockpit check the sync needle and your done ! It's fantastic. You could do it in the air if you were set up for it.
Dick

[Slyfox]

Forget the louvers on the oil cooler, just put the oil thermostate on from lockwood and forget about it. In fact, this will suprise a few, I have less drain back on the oil tank since I put the thermostate on. This has been about a total of 800hrs between both engines. The grove gear can't be beat, I don't care about the extra 20lbs it is nice and strong, and I have landed on some pretty rough landing strips. The vg's I love those good idea, just make sure you have them installed right. The electric trim, love that also.

[jrthomas]

Hey Slyfox, I have the thermostat with my oil cooler. I was thinking more about the one for the radiator. I'll wait and see first how my temps run before I add one. I have the grove gear too. James Thomas

[Slyfox]

Winter came before I could do my newest mod and that would be to install that shutter on the radiator, but cut the one end off, why, I install the heater off the radiator for the winter, and yes it does put out a good amount. I use an oil funnel and than hose it into the cabin. Currently I block off the radiator from the funnel over with tape. Puts the temps right where they need to be.

[catz631]

Steve,
I have thought of installing the oil thermostat but it came out after I had already installed the shutters and I didn't want to go thru all the plumbing and purge procedure .However, the thought of less drain from the oil tank into the engine case is VERY appealing ! Is it really much less ? It doesn't take long for the oil in my tank to go below the dipstick (a few days unless I turn the prop when the oil is cold)
The gear and electric trim are the best mods. I sure wouldn't go back to stock.
The VG's eeeehhhh not much change there but they look cool. They did work well on my former Piper Pacer
Dick

[catz631]

Don't believe I would try that hard rudder on the cross wind turn maneuver in any other aircraft. That is pretty much the way we introduced a student to a "skidded turn stall" when I was a Navy flight instructor teaching in North American T-28's. We did that at altitude and in the case of the T-28 it would roll over on it's back scaring the crap out of the student .He thus learned to fly in coordinated flight in the pattern. The scenerio was overshooting final and then jamming in the rudder to correct back to centerline
As for the oil thermo,I think I am going to get one.
Thanks !
Dick

[Aeroengnr]

Whoa, I thought this thread was dead haha.

Catz, That would be awesome and I really think it would be worth the drive. I walk around at about 210 but can cut to 190 if you give me a few weeks notice (product of my wrestling years). Shoot me a PM and maybe we can get a date worked out.

[Zorro]

Hey Slyfox, What is a good coolant temp? I'm finding conflicting information. The guy who ferried my plane down thought it was high @ 180 (Evens NPG+) But I'm seeing that that is a good temp. What is normal operating range for coolant?

Not like I'm flying any time soon, The only person I can find to check me out/ finish my tail wheel in a Kitfox has to come down from Renton to Vancouver.

[Slyfox]

180 is what I shoot for. You can go to 220 with this expecially with the evans coolant. If you see temps in the 220 range with the radiator unblocked, you need the evans coolant. If you can keep the temps around 180, you can get by with dexcool.

[SkyPirate]

I agree with Slyfox,..180 is a good temp ,..so is 220,.. or 20 degree's plus minus of 200 degree's,.. this is the optimum temp for good cumbustion,.. cleaner burning of the fuel,..best heat range for HP,..


Chase

[catz631]

180 is the bottom of the green arc on my plane. I have to add tape to the radiator even with the shutters fully closed to get it there in the winter. 190 is the min for oil. My engine runs extremely cool and you can sure feel the differance when it is running too cool.
Dick

[SkyPirate]

I wonder if anyone has tried putting a split system incorporated in the cooling system,..like take a radiator that's 1/2 the size of the original and mount it behind the original but put gate valves to commit to only one at a time .,,cooler weather use the smaller radiator ,..warmer weather use the original ,..real hot weather use both ? hmmm ,..it really wouldnt add that much weight to do that ,...

Chase