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cap01
12-10-2009, 12:36 AM
it appears that our known source of alcohol free mogas has finally dryed up in the south puget sound area . was wondering how the 912ul will run on ethanol and what other 912 operators were doing .

cap
40kf
yelm, wa

Av8r3400
12-10-2009, 07:25 AM
Per Lockwood and LEAF (last summer at Airventure) the 10% ethanol purchased for road vehicles is fine in the 912 UL and ULS, given that the ULS is getting it's needed 93 octane (UL only needs 87 octane).

The problem is not the engine, it's the fuel system in the airframe. The ethanol can cause damage to the fiberglass tanks in a Kitfox, causing them to disintegrate allowing material from the tanks to clog filters and potentially cause damage to the engine.

We still have it good here, our moronic government has not yet mandated the use of this garbage in all Wisconsin fuel stations. There are still several stations in my area that have ethanol free fuel. (I'm lucky, for now...)

Slyfox
12-10-2009, 09:10 AM
I've been runing for about 3 years on the stuff and no problems. I think the biggest thing is to keep fresh fuel in the tanks. I fly a lot, but this year the fox only got 140hrs on her. The RV got so far 210hrs. I know I'm a flying fool. But I feel if you are going to do this, make sure you schedule the fuel and only put in what your going to burn and watch how long the fuel is in the tanks. Right now I have about 8gals of fuel in each tank. I put this in about a week ago. If this weather holds up, 10degrees average, well I'm just going to have to drain the fuel. I won't fly the fox below 35 degrees, the RV is much more comfortable. I went flying the RV yesterday in 6degrees, nice and warm, better than my truck. So guess what happens to the fox, it sits. With that, the fuel can get old. No thanks, that can happen real fast. I have an old tank from the 90's and one from 2005, both are figerglass, I don't have problems with either one. I think having fresh fuel and 10percent alki is the key, make sure you don't have more than 10percent and use premium if it's a 912s. One last thing, when using alki fuel, the exhaust will look real black. Is happening to my truck as well. Darn junk.

cap01
12-10-2009, 10:37 AM
thanks guys for the tips and info . for washington it seems "as goes california so goes washington " so the gas ****s have taken over already .
since 40kf is a really early model IV and partially completed when i acquired her so i had no say in fuel tanks . she has both 6 gal tanks which after sloshing holds 4.9 gal in one side and 5.1 gal in the other . the 10 gal max fuel load has pretty much limited my x country flying as there arent too many airports that have mo gas in my area and i really didnt want to use much 100ll . i did the sloshing and what a job after the tank is installed and the wing is covered . i have decided to replace at least the right tank this winter with the 13 gal tank . weve had some really cold, clear days the past week west of the cascades . some nice smooth flying but the left leg and foot sure gets cold . since aug 25 when 40kf first flew ive put 80+ hours on her and was trying for 100 before the end of the year but dont think ill make it .
thanks again
cap01
40kf
yelm wa

Rich W
12-10-2009, 11:40 AM
Unfortunately the EPA is considering raising the alcohol allowed to 15%. The article I read said they would have a decision by mid 2010. More to think about if they do so.

Rich

sdemeyer
12-10-2009, 06:20 PM
Hey there 40kf, the Chevron station off Ruddle rd and Yelm Hwy still has alcohol free super. I just bought some today. I recently changed my tanks to 13 gal and it was a chore although with 26 gal fuel I can fly forever. I had to relocate the drag tubes and recover the entire wing.

Where in Yelm are you located? I'm over here in Oly on Hoskins ( 44T )

Scott

cap01
12-10-2009, 10:27 PM
scott , thanks for the tip on the chevron station . ill have to round up my gas cans and head over there tomorrow . we were getting alcahol free gas over on fones road across from the home depot. i think its an associated petro card lock place . they just recently put the stickers on their pumps about being 10% but i havent tested it .
i keep 40kf at the flying b but i live on the east side of lawrence lake . in fact i think you ran into my friend from the flying b up at jefferson co a month or so ago . he has a dark green kitfox speedster . he had mentioned talking to someone from hoskins that had changed tanks on his kitfox .
we just flew by hoskins today , went up to bremerton for lunch . sneak along olympia airspace and the restricted area . when you operate from hoskins , do you call olympia ? hoskins is an interesting place , does anyone mind if wed drop in sometime so we can say weve been there ?
i have looked into what it will take to change the tank and your correct it looks like a chore but will be worth it . there is a dope and rag guru across the runway at flying b that thinks well be able to do it without recovering the whole wing .
chuck pierce
40kf
yelm wa

sdemeyer
12-10-2009, 11:26 PM
Chuck, my neighbors are all bummed out about the Fones RD station. They used to get 87 from them. I guess they just put the stickers on recently. I always use 92 in my KF and have always gotten it from the Chevron station. That's a nice looking fox your friend has. I'm out your way frequently. I thought I saw a KF today flying around just east of Flying B. Was that you?

You can sneak in and out of Hoskins without talking to Oly but I usually talk to the tower and let them know my intentions. Technically, we are within their airspace. I just tell them if I'm leaving or arriving.

We get a fair amount of transient traffic here and your more than welcome to drop in anytime. Usually most takeoff to the west and land to the east if possible. I'm about 1/2 way down, the hangar with the backhoe parked in front.

Scott

cap01
12-11-2009, 12:09 AM
scott , could have been us returning from bremerton probably around 1400 or a little later . 40kf is white with red wing tips and rudder . i did see a yellow plane heading east on the east side of flying b . the green speedster turned out really nice , only thing is its really hard to see air to air . when ever we go anyplace he usually follows me since i loose sight of him pretty quick even with strobes on . i accumulated a few hours in the green one and made 10-15 landings in it before the first flight of 40kf . really help to make the first flight uneventful .
well have to drop in sometime when we get a good day
thanks
chuck pierce
40kf
yelm, wa

Pilot4Life
12-11-2009, 08:41 AM
Scott and Chuck,
I checked for pics of 40kf and, to my disappointment, I found none. I'm sure you both are proud of your airplanes and we'd all like to see them if you could post some pics. Yeah, I know, I've yet to build mine but ... I still like to drool over other Kitfox's until the rest of us on this site can get ours built! Thanks guys! Oh, by the way...Ever been to the good side of Washington? I grew up in Wenatchee, raised, graduated High School, and enlisted in the Marine Corps there. Since have moved all over the US and now in Tx and I'm flying helicopters, for now!! Anyhow...let's see some photos, yeah?

Chris

Slyfox
12-11-2009, 08:50 AM
I love Wenatchee. I fly in there all the time and take the car and go in for breakfast.

cap01
12-11-2009, 09:48 AM
chris , naturally i have lots of pic and would be happy to share . pretty new to this site and havent figured out how to post them . 40kf was purchased in 1991 and has had three previous owners . when i acquired her she had been covered and painted and grove gear installed . everything else needed to be done , engine installed , panel and wiring and the like . i have gained a great respect for the guys that complete a kit from the begining . as it was it took a good year to complete 40kf and i had to get the mindset that it was like a job . if you dont put your time in , you dont get paid . it is really nice to have a site like this with people that are happy to share thier knowledge and experiences and are interested in what your doing
have fun with the choppers
chuck pierce
40kf
yelm, wa

SkyPirate
12-11-2009, 02:44 PM
qoute"
i have gained a great respect for the guys that complete a kit from the begining . as it was it took a good year to complete 40kf and i had to get the mindset that it was like a job .
end quote

Try building one from scratch :)
I started my project on dec 5th ..the fuselage is all welded together and on wheels ,..just got minor pieces to put on to complete it ..the wing material will be here next tuesday ,..should have the wings on by next week end .
I'm averaging 3 hours a day working on it.
Chase

Slyfox
12-11-2009, 03:57 PM
I did just that, built my Rv on a standard build, took me 2.5 years. I rebuilt the kitfox and changed out one tank rebuilt a complete wing and shortened one. Recovered the whole airplane, took 5 months.

Anyway, back to original post. I run my 912s on alki fuel but I really wish they would knock out the lead in the current fuel for aircraft, what this will do is lower the 100 octane to a lower number, but most aircraft can take this, if this is done, my IO360 will love it, I will love it. For one the deposites in my lyc will be less and my rotax can run on it without problems. For me this would be a great thing.

SkyPirate
12-11-2009, 04:41 PM
you did an awesome job on the both of them too Steve ,...

mines not a kit ,..I designed it .

Sad thing about the fuel issues ..experimental aircraft flyers ..aside from using aviation fuels and paying the higher costs will eventually have to modify any existing fuel systems to meet the suppliers recipee for the fuel,
allot of automobiles have the "other then metal" fuel cells ,..it won't be long before someone matches the materials in these fuel tanks for aircraft fuel tanks, sad thing is ..once you think your caught up ..they change it again
Chase

Papa Beach
12-13-2010, 10:39 PM
A "Highlander" acquaintance sent the following website which provides a listing of ethanol free gas stations in both Canada and the US which may be helpful.

www.pure-gas.org (http://www.pure-gas.org/)

jrthomas
12-14-2010, 07:41 AM
We recently lost our supplier of ethanol free gas. They were forced to accept ethanol by their supplier so I did a little searching. I called a local distributer and this nice lady started reading a list of service stations with ethanol free gas. None of them were listed on puregas.org. One of the stations was about 8 miles from me so we made a run. In my search and conversations I found an awful lot of people share my concerns about ethanol. A local tractor, mowing and farm equipment dealer say that about 80% of their engine repair is gas related. I'm one of those, a Cub Cadet with a rough running engine that ended up being caused by water in 10% ethanol gas. Yesterday I drained about 15 gallons from my bass boat tank. My 150 Mercury has oil injection so the gas has no oil mixture and the boat is sheltered so no contamation like water should be present. The last time I filled the tank was from a station that only has ethanol laced gas. The gas I drained was an awful yellow color. The boat tank is plastic so it's not rust. My personal belief is don't store gas with ethanol for any length of time and I don't intend to run it in my boat or plane. It's nasty stuff. James Thomas

Paul Z
12-15-2010, 08:15 PM
My recommendation is that it is not worth the savings. I have the newer fiberglass tanks and I am getting to flush my fuel system. Man what a PAIN!

Geowitz
12-16-2010, 05:52 AM
Paul,

What do you mean? That the ethanol is affecting your newer tanks?

Paul Z
12-16-2010, 08:27 AM
When I drained my tanks, I had a light brown film or contaminant (not sure what word to use) in my tanks. I used a clear Siphon hose, and I saw several balls of the light brown contaminant liquid pass through the hose as I siphoned the tanks. I removed my air intake and found that the inside of the Carbs to be sticky. I have cleaned the carbs with Carb Cleaner, and ethanol. I have three 5 gallon tanks of the gas in the hanger. I will see if I can can get a sample out of the gas cans, and take a picture of it this weekend! I am not sure if it was the ethanol that degraded the fiberglass or not! I used about 2 tanks of Premium auto fuel. When, I went flying the last time before the engine started idling rough, I noticed the Sight gauge (clear fuel hose) on each wing tank had gotten cloudy with a light brown tint, it definitely made them harder to read the sight gage. Prior to using the auto fuel the sight gauge hoses were clear! If your sight gauges start turning a light brown be aware! I plan on folding the wings and replacing the sight gauge hoses, so I will have that as an indicator!

enyaw
12-16-2010, 08:38 AM
My recommendation is that it is not worth the savings. I have the newer fiberglass tanks and I am getting to flush my fuel system. Man what a PAIN!

Flush them in accordance with Service Bulletin #60 (http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/support/service_bulletins/sb60.pdf) and you should be good.

Paul Z
12-16-2010, 06:52 PM
Flush them in accordance with Service Bulletin #60 (http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/support/service_bulletins/sb60.pdf) and you should be good.

I just drained 26 or so gallons of fuel, found a place to recycle it and the Plan is to starting the Process of flushing Saturday. I hope all goes well!

cap01
12-16-2010, 07:16 PM
paul , maybe youve seen this picture already but this is what i got out of the tank doing the three rinses . the tank wasnt installed yet so it wasnt too bad . if i had to do it on the airplane , id probably remove the finger filter and install a barbed fitting with a hose . this crap would never get past the filter . i havent had a chance to play with the acetone i did the rinse with yet but it smells like resin . good luck .

Paul Z
12-16-2010, 07:36 PM
I hate to be dumb but what is a finger filter? The fuel filter?
I purchase a sump fuel tank drain fiting from Aircraft spruce, I plan on installing it on the header tank. It will allow me to use a hose, and lock the sump drain open so I can drain the tank without worring about getting the acetone on the paint.

Paul Z
12-16-2010, 07:39 PM
Ahhhh Finger strainers, aka tank filters! Good Idea, when I replace the hose for the sight gage, I will pull them!

cap01
12-16-2010, 08:37 PM
yes , the tank filter/strainer . course screen , keeps the big chunks from leaving the tank and going down the fuel hose .

Paul Z
12-22-2010, 07:21 PM
Well, I have replaced the Header tank, I have gotten a new fuel filter in from Summit Racing, 703KA had a Earls' 25 micron filter so am replacing it with the same. I had a little bit of a Fuel leak.

Picture #1 - Oops a little Fuel Leaking, my better half was complaining about the smell of fuel! I wonder why??
Picture #2 - The two fitting that were causing the leak, as installed.
Picture #3 - I Replaced fitting and got rid of one pipe thread reducer (the Blue pipe thread fitting)
Picture #4 - Added a back flow valve, per John McBean, to prevent fuel from flowing back up to engine in case of Fire!
Picture #5 - Earl's Fuel Filter, I took the old one out, after cleaning and reinstalling it, because it did not have a Flow direction indicator on it, so I ordered a new one! I will replace it next!

Next up is to put some fuel in the header tank to assure it doesn't leak!

Hopefully over the Christmas Holidays, I can finish the tanks and fuel lines up so I can flush the tanks. All, just in time to get it's annual done. I need to talk to Steve Quiones my A&P about doing the Annual!! I also need to do my BFR Flight Review!

Av8r3400
12-22-2010, 08:01 PM
As a quick explanation for clarity, in Paul's pictures 1, 2, and 3 these fittings are on the side of the tank, not the top. The photos are rotated 90°.

Paul Z
12-23-2010, 04:00 PM
Si! You are correct the pictures are rotated 90 Deg!

Paul Z
12-28-2010, 08:30 AM
Well the header tank is back in and there are NO LEAKS.
Thanks John McBean for all the help!
Now to get the Annual! The Annual is not due until January.
However, I am not putting it all back together and then having to tear it all apart again for the Annual.

1804

Paul Z
12-31-2010, 04:21 PM
When I drained my tanks, I had a light brown film or contaminant (not sure what word to use) in my tanks. ...... If your sight gauges start turning a light brown be aware! I plan on folding the wings and replacing the sight gauge hoses, so I will have that as an indicator!

I just completed flushing my tanks. As I said before I noticed the sight gauges had browned, on the bottom part of the tank I could barely see the fuel level!! Now that I have completed flushing the tanks, I can see the fuel level on the gauges. It stripped out most of the brown, almost back to new. Today I was somewhat surprised how much foreign material I got out of the tanks! In touching the inside of the tanks it is no longer Sticky!

I got hose splicers and some fuel line to run the lines directly from the fuel tank into 5 Gallon Gas Cans for disposal, and to assure myself that the Acetone did not git on the Paint! When I was ready to drain the tanks, I set a 5 gallon gas can on the ground on the passengers side. I then folded the hose over to crimp off the flow removed the hose clamps, pulled the drill bits out of the hose, stuffed the end of the hose into the gas cans and no mess!

I covered both wings with plastic taping it on with painters tape. see the attached pictures.

I sealed the vents using 1/4 inch fuel line with 1/4 inch drills inserted in each to keep fuel from splashing out.

Finally when finished I taped Paper Towels over the tank fillers to assure nothing got in.

Now to start on the Annual, Steve my A&P / AI is stuck in Chicago, but we will get that started in a week!

1815

DesertFox4
12-31-2010, 05:12 PM
Looks and sounds like it went well Paul. Glad you have that task behind you now. Good luck on the annual. I'm sure it will go fine. Happy New Year.

Dorsal
12-31-2010, 09:24 PM
Paul, looks good, hope you are back in the air soon with the BSS well behind you.
Happy New year

Paul Z
01-01-2011, 08:59 AM
The only place I found that it stripped some paint was on the Fuel Tank Caps! Some guy named Steve K. had me all spun up worrying about getting the acetone on the paint, and rightly so! Acetone will really mess up a good paint job! I would HIGHLY recommend covering the wings as show. When I was poring Acetone into the funnel, no matter how hard I tried, I did get Acetone to splash , out of the funnel and back onto the Plastic, but it didn't splash on the paint!

Paul Z
01-08-2011, 05:03 PM
We, 703KA is back up and running. I got the Annual completed as well. It ran a heck of a lot better. Thanks to Steve Queones for completing the Annual. I plan on reassembling it after the inspection tomorrow. Hopefully if the weather participate, I can get some flight time in!

Dorsal
01-08-2011, 05:10 PM
Paul, way to go. I should have been as carful as you where, I still have a few "reminders" on my paint job from the BSS rinsing process. I will get the airbrush out in the spring and no one will ever know.
Hoe you are back in the air soon

Paul Z
01-10-2011, 07:39 AM
It definitely ran better, I could reve the engine up to 3500 RPM without it kicking like a mule, but the choke is persistent in sticking. Steve Q. (A&P, AI) recommended I run some Sea Foam carb cleaner through the system. So, I plan on getting 1 1/2 gallon of fuel, add the carb cleaner, and then fill it into the header tank. That was I don't get an unknown into the fiberglass wing tanks! Question . . should I add the Decalin Runup Lead Scavenger Fuel Additive along with the Sea Foam Carb Cleaner. I am a little concerned with the reaction of two additives!

By the Way, I can not find anyplace that I got acetone on the wing paint. :D Hopefully there were none! It did get a little on the Gas Cap which Stripped the paint off of the edge of the front edge of the gas cap! :mad:

Dorsal
01-10-2011, 07:59 AM
Paul,
Are you confident that the choke sticking is a problem at the carb and not a cable/routing issue? I ask because I remember having to mess with that when I set up mine.

Andrew G
01-10-2011, 12:08 PM
Paul... I have a Honda 4 stroke boat motor... my pal has a Honda as well and he has had similar problems that you are having with your Rotax. Every mechanic suggested that he use the seafoam... and it didn't work...

Paul Z
01-10-2011, 03:18 PM
I noticed my chokes are almost impossible to use, man do they stick. I replaced the cable, but that was not it! I ended up using an open ended wrench turned the nut that hold the choke lever, and then it would move freely a couple of times, and then after sitting over night it is stuck again! I am going to remove the covers on the choke circuit, and spray the inside down with Carb Cleaner. Hopefully that will fix the problem. If not I plan on pulling the carbs to get them rebuilt!


Paul,
Are you confident that the choke sticking is a problem at the carb and not a cable/routing issue? I ask because I remember having to mess with that when I set up mine.

Dorsal
01-10-2011, 05:19 PM
Paul, did you remove, disassemble and clean the carbs after finding the BSS? If not I strongly recommend doing so. I removed and cleaned every part of my carbs and the BSS was everywhere. They work flawlessly now.

Geowitz
01-10-2011, 06:38 PM
paul , maybe youve seen this picture already but this is what i got out of the tank doing the three rinses . the tank wasnt installed yet so it wasnt too bad . if i had to do it on the airplane , id probably remove the finger filter and install a barbed fitting with a hose . this crap would never get past the filter . i havent had a chance to play with the acetone i did the rinse with yet but it smells like resin . good luck .

Just to add more to the conversation - I recently received a new set of tanks for my model 4. I did the rinse last week and got a lot of those flakes as well. I think the flakes are resin(uncured) that dropped down during the joining process and fell onto a previously cured part(like the baffles) that had mold release on it. The acetone rinse then removed the mold release and worked its way under the newly cured drops of resin and lifted them as flakes. After all of my rinses i filled my tanks with water several times and released the water quickly and the flakes flushed through. What got stuck in the drain holes I just pulled through with tweezers.

Just a theory.

Paul Z
01-11-2011, 05:52 AM
Paul, did you remove, disassemble and clean the carbs after finding the BSS? If not I strongly recommend doing so. I removed and cleaned every part of my carbs and the BSS was everywhere. They work flawlessly now.

That is next! I plan on doing that over then next couple of weeks!

Paul Z
01-17-2011, 06:26 PM
FYI, Safety Recommendation. As, I have said in previous postings. I had to do the Acetone (Dance) rinse of my wing tanks. I pulled my sight gauge hoses, to replace them since they got a through rinse as well. I replaced both sight gauges and the clear vent hoses. FYI, I was surprised with the sight gauge hoses. The hose was a blistered, where the Copper wire touches the hose at the bottom bend, and there were hireling cracks/crazing of the hose. I plan on taking some pictures of the hoses this week to post. I was surprised how discolored they actually were. So if you flush your wing tanks with Acetone check the Hoses.

Paul Z
01-17-2011, 07:43 PM
Oop I'm not a good Spiller It's Hairline

Dorsal
01-17-2011, 09:09 PM
Paul,
Thanks for the tip, I did notice that the site gauge one my right tanks was a little discolored at the bottom of the tube. I will give it a close inspection next time I am up at the hangar.

Paul Z
01-17-2011, 09:28 PM
Dorsal

Let US know what you find. I truly was shocked how bad my sight gauges were!

Paul Zimm

Paul Z
01-22-2011, 05:00 PM
I had said I would get some photos of the sight gauges Discolored, Blister, Cracks :mad:

DesertFox4
01-22-2011, 07:00 PM
Really good call replacing those Paul. Avoided fuel spilling down your shoulders during flight is a pretty good thing.

Paul Z
01-24-2011, 01:35 PM
It would not have taken long for those sight gauges to start leaking! I was truly surprised at the Cracks.

The butterfly valve, and the choke were still sticking so I finally got up the nerve to pull both Carbs. I took them home to clean them up. I sprayed sprayed down one with Carb Cleaner, Carb Side, and Intake Manifold side, slid the slider, actuating the throttle, actuating the choke, and in the ports, and the choke port. If there was an opening I sprayed in Choke cleaner. I poored it all out and spayed in Starter fluid to clean out the Carb Cleaner. Then I let it sit over night. The next morning I checked to see if anything was sticking, everything was moving freely. I did the same thing on the second Carb, now to see if it works.

Hopefully I will be flying this weekend!

kl2657
02-16-2011, 08:39 AM
Here's an interesting article that boatus did on the effects of ethanol on fiberglass fuel tanks:

http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/fueltest.asp#results

Does anyone know what kind of resin was used in the new kitfox ethanol resistant fuel tanks?

Slyfox
02-16-2011, 09:26 AM
I've never had problems with my tanks, knock on wood, where's the wood, kind of like were's the beef. But anyway, John contacted me and had concerns with alki in his tank, so I went right out and check by touching the inside my tanks, all ok.

I am to understand that if the tanks have problems, that it's just the top coat inside the tank, once that comes off you will be ok. I guess. Anyway I remember when I recieved my tank it said to slosh out with 100LL, well I was cheap and used auto fuel with alki instead. Now I find out that works better than 100LL. I feel good now. But every time I fuel up I check the tanks and there not sticky. So I guess I'm ok. My plane gets auto fuel 100% of the time and has been all it's life with me, 6 years. So I say it's ok, but your tank needs to be sloshed out until all is clear with, you guessed it, auto fuel. I would also check that 5 gallans of fuel you have for amount of alki to see if it is too high.

Paul Z
02-16-2011, 10:15 AM
Does anyone know what kind of resin was used in the new kitfox ethanol resistant fuel tanks?


Go Look at the previous pages of this thread. I have had to flush my system, replace hoses, clean and rebalance the Carbs!

Rodney
02-16-2011, 10:29 AM
After reading about all the problems with the ethanol and fiberglass tanks,
has anyone thought about trying to get a set of aluminum tanks built that
would fit in a Kitfox 4 or a Kitfox 7. Guess that would be two different tank designs - but would it be worth looking into???

Rodney

kl2657
02-16-2011, 10:54 AM
Go Look at the previous pages of this thread. I have had to flush my system, replace hoses, clean and rebalance the Carbs!


Paul,

Were your tanks the new ethanol resistant ones?

Paul Z
02-16-2011, 09:13 PM
I purchased the SLSA plane from Kitfox, I didn't build it. How can you tell if the tanks are the ethanol resistant tanks. It is the type of resin, and I don't know which resin they were built from. the plane was built in 2008. I could go check the date on the tanks, to see when they were built!

Av8r3400
02-16-2011, 09:39 PM
After reading about all the problems with the ethanol and fiberglass tanks,
has anyone thought about trying to get a set of aluminum tanks built that
would fit in a Kitfox 4 or a Kitfox 7. Guess that would be two different tank designs - but would it be worth looking into???

Rodney

Some of the early Avid flyers had aluminum wing tanks. They were not very successful. The design of the wings on the Avid/Kitfox planes flex so much that cracking and leaking was prevalent.

kl2657
02-17-2011, 01:25 PM
I purchased the SLSA plane from Kitfox, I didn't build it. How can you tell if the tanks are the ethanol resistant tanks. It is the type of resin, and I don't know which resin they were built from. the plane was built in 2008. I could go check the date on the tanks, to see when they were built!

Sorry, forgot you have an SLSA...

I guess at the end of the day I'm left wondering which is the lesser of two evils AVGAS or Ethanol.

Paul Z
02-17-2011, 06:31 PM
Ethanol, I have spent many hours reworking the effects! I will pay the price for Avgas, or I will not fly! I want to fly so I guess I'll pay for the AvGas!

Dorsal
02-17-2011, 07:42 PM
Speaking of which have you got that plane flying yet?

Paul Z
02-17-2011, 07:49 PM
Hopefully Saturday, I have been busy at the Rock Pit, and haven't had time to work on it all week. It is running a heck of a lot better. I need to work on the balance one more time! It should take about 30 minutes, then it is time to button it up and cross the fingers and go flying!

Dorsal
02-17-2011, 07:57 PM
Cool, it was so nice in the north east (~60 deg) today that I just had to cut out early and go fly for an hour or so. I will have to get caught up during the 30+ winds projected for Saturday, hope yours will be better.

akarmy
02-17-2011, 10:10 PM
I purchased the SLSA plane from Kitfox, I didn't build it. How can you tell if the tanks are the ethanol resistant tanks. It is the type of resin, and I don't know which resin they were built from. the plane was built in 2008. I could go check the date on the tanks, to see when they were built!

Just FYI, for this topic, you need to check the SN of the tanks (it's on your order forms when you got the tanks) or possibly on the tanks somewhere. By that or the date of manufacture John can tell you if they are good or not. However this has nothing to do with the surface residue that Dorsal and Paul have been removing. That's not the resin breaking down, but the release agent that was still in the tanks that needed to be cleaned out. That's why we all got the SB recently to check and clean them if necessary. If you really have the wrong resin it will continue to eat at it until your tanks start leaking through the wings!

cap01
02-17-2011, 11:50 PM
the s/n on my new tanks were etced on the inbd end of the tanks where the outlets are for the sight guage and finger filter . i think the date of mfg is in with the s/n or so it seemed on mine .

Slyfox
02-18-2011, 08:56 AM
Just FYI, for this topic, you need to check the SN of the tanks (it's on your order forms when you got the tanks) or possibly on the tanks somewhere. By that or the date of manufacture John can tell you if they are good or not. However this has nothing to do with the surface residue that Dorsal and Paul have been removing. That's not the resin breaking down, but the release agent that was still in the tanks that needed to be cleaned out. That's why we all got the SB recently to check and clean them if necessary. If you really have the wrong resin it will continue to eat at it until your tanks start leaking through the wings!
you are absolutely right there. I have a tank that was from the original skystar from 2005 and a recent tank from John that was purchased last year. I sloshed out both tanks with auto fuel. I run over 100hrs a year with 250hrs a year before my RV was finished. I have never used anything other than auto fuel. Last I tested the fuel there was 5% alki in the fuel. I never drain my tanks, I only fill them 1/2 full when flying locally and I have never had an issue with the fuel or the runability of the engine. Every oil change I remove the bowls on the carbs and there is never anything in them, clean as a whistle. I to got the notice to check the tanks which I do quit often, you stick your finger in the tank and swip the inside, if it's sticky you have a problem, mine have never had a problem, either tank.

So if you have a problem, make sure and slosh your tank with auto fuel, with alki, until the coating is gone, that's my advice, whether you continue with auto fuel or not. If you use 100LL you are also taking a risk for the lead will destroy your engine. Using the additive I think will still give you problems, I'm talking valve troubles here.

Dorsal
02-18-2011, 09:25 AM
The good news here is we have examples of folks running the engines for over 1000 hours on pure mogas and others on pure avgas without incident. As I stated before on the rinsing I was glad I used acetone as it gave me confidence that I got all unwanted stuff out of the tank (tricky to use, don't spill on the finish).

Paul Z
02-19-2011, 04:06 PM
Well good news today! I got the Carbs set, now I need to have Steve K. come by and check the repair. I'm outing the seats back in, and should be ready to fly after that. Steve's going to be the long pole in the tent, but I want him to check my work work out, and sign her off! I will keep y'all posted. :D

Paul Z
02-21-2011, 06:58 PM
Well, I went out started the engine, taxied down for fuel, filled it up, and taxied back to the hanger. Stopped and ran up the engine. Checked the Left and right ignitions. Idle was great at 2300 RPM, a little high but definitely idled well. At the recommendation of John McBean I did a whole lot of Taxing. I Taxied back to the hanger, and set the RPM a little lower. I set it at 2500 RPM and turned off the fuel and allowed it to die. Then I took a .002, .0025, .003, .004, and finally a .005 feeler gauge between the set screw and the stop. Now I have it idling at 2000 RPM. Personally, had the winds not been so bad, I would have gone flying the pattern, so I guess it is good that the winds kept me on the ground. Now to wait for some nice sunny day, with winds under 35 MPH, and we are going flying!

Paul Z
02-21-2011, 07:00 PM
The good news here is we have examples of folks running the engines for over 1000 hours on pure mogas and others on pure avgas without incident. As I stated before on the rinsing I was glad I used acetone as it gave me confidence that I got all unwanted stuff out of the tank (tricky to use, don't spill on the finish).

Make sure you mask it off well, I used painters tape and .003 mill plastic, it did a great job!

Slyfox
02-22-2011, 08:32 AM
Well, I went out started the engine, taxied down for fuel, filled it up, and taxied back to the hanger. Stopped and ran up the engine. Checked the Left and right ignitions. Idle was great at 2300 RPM, a little high but definitely idled well. At the recommendation of John McBean I did a whole lot of Taxing. I Taxied back to the hanger, and set the RPM a little lower. I set it at 2500 RPM and turned off the fuel and allowed it to die. Then I took a .002, .0025, .003, .004, and finally a .005 feeler gauge between the set screw and the stop. Now I have it idling at 2000 RPM. Personally, had the winds not been so bad, I would have gone flying the pattern, so I guess it is good that the winds kept me on the ground. Now to wait for some nice sunny day, with winds under 35 MPH, and we are going flying!
now get the idle to at least 1800 and you will be able to land it.

Slyfox
02-22-2011, 08:48 AM
one more thing, how do you know the rpm is correct. Find one of those units that you point at the prop and check the rpm. You might be supprised at the results. Once you know that, set the idle to no faster than 1800, why you'll float down the runway with too high idle. nothing worse than on touch down saying to yourself, wooooo silver.

Paul Z
02-22-2011, 08:23 PM
1800 RPM , I thought I was doing good to get it to 2000 RPM. I guess I need to slow her down a bit more!

Paul Z
02-22-2011, 08:58 PM
I must admit trying to land it a 2500+ RPM was a little challenging!

Av8r3400
02-22-2011, 09:52 PM
I set mine closer to 1500 in order to descend, much less land. ;)

After landing and slowing down, I increase throttle position to get the 1800-2000 for smooth running.

BUT, my engine is the 80 hp with lower compression which may (will?) behave differently...

Slyfox
02-23-2011, 09:33 AM
Ok, this is what I have. THe RPM is set for 500. YUP, I don't land at that rpm, But it sure is nice to pull the throttle all the way back on decent and slow that airplane down, Flat prop and low rpm means I can do an incredable short approach, no flaps, with my airplane. I also have found a compression stop on the engine when starting so I pull the throttle all the way back and crank it until it smooths out and push the throttle in a little and it starts right up with no kick and nice and smooth. This usually takes about 2seconds at throttle back. On shut down I hit both mags off and pull the throttle back and it shuts off with no shudder, nice and smooth. What I did to set this is just turn both idle screws to the left 1/2 turn and it put it right on the money. If you just want to lower your idle a couple hun rpm just turn it to the left maybe about 1/16 on both and you should get. Just do them both the same. I am so use to my rpm that just as I'm rounding out to land I'm putting just a smidge of throttle in to keep the rpm at a high enough rpm to keep it running smooth. I have let the rpm go way down to the 500 and my engine still runs pretty smooth. I guess the prop balance and proper carb balance has done wonders for my engine.

Eric
02-24-2011, 07:58 AM
Hello

I am rebuilding a 1991 KF 3 and it has welded aluminium wingtanks
Did they use those days internal coatings?
Here in europe there comes ethanol in the fuel more and more and avgas is in a few years totaly forbidden ,and now very expensive 15$ per gallon.

Paul Z
02-24-2011, 07:59 PM
I set mine closer to 1500 in order to descend, much less land. ;)

After landing and slowing down, I increase throttle position to get the 1800-2000 for smooth running.

BUT, my engine is the 80 hp with lower compression which may (will?) behave differently...

Well I got it down to 1800 RPM, now I need to talk to Steve, and then go flying!

Slyfox
02-25-2011, 09:07 AM
steve here, go ahead and talk.

Paul Z
02-25-2011, 08:38 PM
Well, I took off from work early today. I Called Advance Flight Systems to resolve figure out how to update the Maintenance logs on the Flight System. Once I did that I took 703KA out of the hanger and started the warm up. It definitely runs good. I can cut the throttle and get the RPM to about 1750RPM. Once she was all warmed up to about 100 Deg, I taxied out to go do the run up. I got to the end of the Taxi way it was 55 Degrees outside, and it was still running only about 107 Degrees, I let a couple of the planes that were queued up go ahead of me while I waited for 120 Degrees. Two Bonanzas, 3 Cessnas, 1 RV, etc, and I finally got to go. Man was the pattern busy, and they were all doing touch and goes. I taxied out to Runway 35, pushed the throttle to the panel, and away we went. I was climbing out in short order. As I clambered two additional planes entered the pattern. I turned Cross Wind, then turned flying down down Wind, and another Bonanza squawks and said he's going to squeeze into the pattern. As he finishes his call, *****in' Betty (the Advanced Flight Systems voice) says Exhaust Gas Temperature Warning. I look down and the EGT Temp is pegged. Just then, I announce that I am turning base, as one of the Bonanza pilots squawks something, and *****in' Betty Squawks at me again, I announce I have a problem, with a snide remark from one of the Bonanza Pilots. As I flair to land the temp goes back to normal. I guess, I get to clean some Exhaust Gas Temp Senors, and try again tomorrow. Regardless, I got to at least fly her today, and it is a lot easier to land her when the RPM is 1900 RPM versus 2500RPM.

Slyfox
02-25-2011, 08:46 PM
when it comes to the 912, the egt can go out the window. As long as the engine runs good, who cares. I have had so many problems with probs in these that I don't care anymore what that sensor reads. Oh and a bad sensor generally goes down in temp not up. sounds like a wire issue.

Paul Z
02-26-2011, 07:39 AM
Thanks, That is effectively what John McBean told me. It is good to get the same answer from two sources. Since, I have never had a plane with a Rotax before, I didn't want to risk damage to the exhaust valves, or the heads. So, on base, and it was still squawking, I just declared an emergency, and landed it. It was already getting late, the sun was setting, and I knew it had to be a short pattern flight to test it out. I'll try again today to see if it was just burning off the C _ _ _ , from sitting so long!

Slyfox
02-26-2011, 10:33 AM
not a problem, check your connections. you might want to disconnect the egt sensor and check the dynon, I think it goes max when disconnected. if so than you know were to start on your checks.

Paul Z
04-09-2011, 04:54 PM
Well I think I have my problems resolved. I've put about 15 hours on the plane in the last couple of weeks. Although the EGT get up there, it is only when flying at low altitude in the patter, or flying at about 500 AGL or 900 feet to about 1500 ft. Once I get to 2500 or 3500 feet everything seems to be fine. I replaced the plugs, visually they look to be burning fine. I must admit, balancing the carbs made her run a heck of a lot better, and I can cut the throttle to about 1800 without much problem. I went and flew the pattern today for a couple of Take Off & Landings and *****in betty only squeaked at me once, the winds were pushing 20 to 25, so it was kind of a rough ride. The good news is now I feel comfortable this issue is behind me! :D

Paul Z
08-01-2011, 08:35 PM
Well I flew from Dallas to Weyers Cave VA, in June, to take Rotax Maintenance class. It is good that I can now legally,according to Rotax, do my maintenance as owner operator on my own plane. I was planning on taking the LSRM training but the Rock Pit wouldn't allow me tome off to take off 4 consecutive weeks off. I took the class at blue Ridge Community College, Dean from Lockwood taught the class. In flying from Dallas to Weyers Cave, it seemed the idle had creeped back up to 2000 RPM, and my exhaust gas temp was running hot, now the temps in the south has been a little warmer. We used the 703KA, to change oil, tune up, and set carbs. I explained to Dean setting the idle to 1450 RPM was going to be a challenge, it turned out to be a saga, I'll explain that later. End item Dean recommended I pull the carbs, vand check them. We pulled the bowls, and found a nice thick coating of epoxy in the. Sent them to Lockwood for a rebuild. Reinstalled, balance and got them to idle at 1600. The rebuild also resolved by EGT problem. I'll write more later and post some pictures. Oh I forgot to mention, another header tank leak while flying back to Dallas.