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wadeg
09-11-2008, 12:04 AM
Yeah I know I just started flying mine....but, have started wondering what mods here and there can be done to reduce parasitic drag. Aside from the standards (being the PVC lift strut fairings and wheelpants) what little mods make a difference? IE: Gas cap fairing, horizontal stab strut fairings, fairing the landing gear legs, etc. I aint thinking about doing a Klaus Savier with mine but thought I'd toss the question out?

RandyL
09-11-2008, 06:02 AM
Now you're talkin my language!! Whatever changes you make please be sure to test before and after under controlled conditions so that test data is valid.

I wish someone would tape over the hole just under the spinner of the newer cowl to see if it's even needed. That could help speed, but I'm more curious about whether it is needed for cooling or not. I suspect is not.

Wade, you have strut fairings but no wheel pants, correct? What sort to top and cruise speeds are you seeing?

RandyL
09-11-2008, 06:51 AM
Wade,

Since you don't have wheel pants on yet, and you're interested in improving speed, you might consider some alternative wheelpants. The standard Kitfox wheelpants do not fair the brake caliper for the bottom section of the gear leg. I suspect this compromises the speed gain a measurable amount. I am installing 5" wheels and Van's RV pressure recovery wheelpants on my Super Sport, then have 8.50" tires mounted on the 6" wheels that came with the kit that I can install when i want to go land on sand bars and river beds. Details on my setup here (http://www.teamkitfox.com/MyKitfox/Mods/mods.html#5inchwheels).

If you wanted to keep the 6" wheels & tires you might be able to fit a set of RV-10 wheelpants, food for thought. They are noticeably larger though, I'm not sure how they'd be aesthetically.

From what I could tell the Kitfox is already the fastest tube & fabric option available. Reducing drag to make it even faster is an area I'm interested in. Since we both live in the same area perhaps we can collaborate on this.

BTW, Chapter 105 has a state-of-the-art prop balancer system, details here (http://www.eaa105.org/Programs/programs.html#PropBalancing). I'm anxious to start doing Rotax installations so let me know if you're interested. I've balanced over seventy props so far with good results. DSS Micro uses us as an example in all their OSH seminars. Sorry, didn't mean to hi-jack this thread!

wadeg
09-11-2008, 12:23 PM
Aesthetically, wheelpants are gunna be odd on my plane unless I put shark's teeth on the front of each...

I brought the engine up to 5600 at just about 5000' and saw the speed hit 130 indicated. gps said 136 mph with a little bit of wind behind me. from what I could tell, the wind was just about 6 on my tail from flying into it. Pitot seems to be working very accurately above about 50 mph.

Randy, yeah I'd like to do a dynamic on the rotax. Will be joining 105 now that I have some time on my hands (and $).

RandyL
09-11-2008, 12:47 PM
Naw, it'll look fine, just paint 'em green to match. Of course sharks' teeth would be kind of cool!



I brought the engine up to 5600 at just about 5000' and saw the speed hit 130 indicated. .

130 mph indicated is pretty good, especially without wheelpants! Kitfox Aircraft lists top speed as 125 mph, not sure if that is with or without wheelpants, official specs here (http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/SS%20Specs.htm). For testing purposes though TAS should be used, that'll eliminate any wind factor.

What is your indicated stall speed, both solo and at gross?

DesertFox4
09-11-2008, 04:25 PM
Wade, you've already discussed the wheel pants so I'll add that the jury struts can be streamlined and not sure from your photos if your horizontal stabilizer has streamlined struts or not. Those are two easy mods.
Another cheap fairing is the strut to wing junctions. I know Murle Williams has a set of plastic fairings that are easily fitted and painted for that area. John may also have them available but not sure. You can check and see.
Also the fuel cap fairings are interesting little creatures. How much speed you will pick up is hard to say but they work wonders for reattaching the airflow around those nasty round caps. The caps disturb an area of the wing that makes a triangle about 1.5 feet wide by the time it hits the flapperons. That's a lot of wing area disturbed times two caps. Well worth the effort.
The landing gear is a harder fix. You really have to fair in the gear before covering the fuselage and painting.
Also mounting the com antenna inside the tail helps but we're nit picking on that one. The largest return on investment for any model Kitfox is streamlining the struts. 8 to 12 mph is the norm for increase here.
You've got a fast Kitfox already but there is more speed to be found. Just have to weigh the time and effort to find it. With the price of fuel lately it is getting more appealing to try.

Steve

Robin G
09-11-2008, 06:14 PM
You have done a superb job on the paint and theme of your plane. As an old Viet Nam dog who was around lots of the FAC planes, your's looks great. But you need to prioritize your objecitves. Are you willing to sacrafice a knot or 2 to blow the historical visual of your craft? As one who has as an Air Medal from that era, I am crazy about your plane, and can report that I have never seen one in that uniform with wheel pants. But if speed is the ultimate goal, then by all means, go for it. I'll just learn to appreciate a little different uniform.

RandyL
09-12-2008, 08:43 AM
Steve,
I've seen those fuel cap fairings, where can one get a pair? Your description of the way they disrupt airflow backward in a triangle is eye opening. Sounds like you must've seen some tuft testing in this area. The disrupted air would kill lift on the wing in that area, but since the flaperons are stepped down from the wing aren't they still in clean air flowing under the bottom of the wing?

jonbakerok
09-12-2008, 11:00 AM
I was thinking of relocating the tank vents to the bottom of the wing anyway. I wonder how much trouble it would be to install flush caps. Seems like it would help a bunch, considering the airfoil is supposed to be laminar flow.

DesertFox4
09-12-2008, 03:55 PM
Randy, the flapperons would not be in disturbed airflow caused by the gas caps. That was more of a visual description to envision the amount of wing area the caps affect. Check with the McBeans to see it they stock the fuel cap fairings. I know Murle Williams has them on the self along with the strut to wing fairings. Thank Phil Laker for the fairings. He came up with them along with many other slick items you see on our Kitfoxs.


Jon-- I very near came to putting flush fuel caps on my Model 4 during my build. I have one brand new cap in my hangar yet that is contoured to the shape of the Kitfox fuel tank top. I think it is worth trying. Maybe there is someone out there who has done this already and will give us some feedback.
The only thing that held me back was the vent system. We considered running the vents all the way out to the end of the wing using the wings dihedral to get them high enough above the tank level . Problem with that is if you fold your wings the vents will be so low you will drain your tanks out your vents. Also seems not to be a good idea to put them below the wings for that reason but I'll have to give that some more thought. Good luck if you try it and keep us posted.

wadeg
09-16-2008, 12:20 AM
This is one cool thread!
All the things I wanna do with my plane are running through my head.
At the top of the list right now are:
1. gas cap fairing
2. lift strut tip fairings.
3. 'cleaner' jury struts
4. horz stab strut 'cleaning'
5. tailwheel spring root fairing
6. add 'clip on' fairing to the interior flat-reared portion of the lift struts
7. 'cleaning' of landing gear.

Have not gotten myself to the wheelpant idea yet....

A little update: Flew 3 hours today. This plane is just a kick in the pants! No problems arising. Did some power off stalls and with one notch of flaps it's breaking right about 43mph IAS. Find I enjoy flying it around at 4800rpm. The engine is nice and smooth and I can cruise at 109 IAS. Got some landing practice as I have found that for some reason I roll into a flare much higher in the KF than in my Aeronca 11. Have trained my peripheral vision to 'see' the left wheel's height. Got a few great landings in....the kind on grass when you just kiss the wheels on in a 3 point and the tufts of grass tease the wheels as you hit. Can't say enough about how great this plane flies. The one thing that has presented a challenge is getting it to slow down to about 65 on approach. Feels like I am trying to get a boat onto a particular spot on the 'step' but once there, it settles into the approach/descent rate nicely.

jonbakerok
09-17-2008, 11:41 AM
Cessna's have flush fuel caps. Anybody know how the vents work?

There were some RV guys a few years ago who did their vents with a loop of tubing in the wing root, instead of the usual big loop running up and down in the fuse. Seemed to work, though I never could figure out how, since RV's have a lot of dihedral and the root is obviously the low point.

RandyL
09-17-2008, 01:02 PM
I almost used that method on my RV-3. It works but does puke a bit more fuel than the standard fuselage high-point design.

As much as I hate fiberglass work I'll probably try to make some sort of fairing that attaches to the fuel cap and includes the vent. The first thing I'd do it try to lower the vent, any reason it needs to stand up as far as it does? If an enterprising individual wanted to make a mold for such a fairing I'm sure one could sell enough copies to make it worthwhile. Now that Steve has described the way the cap destroys the airflow in a triangle back on the rest of the wing I'll never get that image out of my head and be compelled to do something.

desertfox1
09-17-2008, 08:07 PM
I'm the guy that designed and formed many, many fairings sold by
Murle Williams. John McBean just recently designed a new fairing
that I like better then mine. It also has a better surface for mounting.
The master is being tooled now, parts available in about a month.
He is also working on strut to wing fairings, I haven't seen the
masters yet. I am interested in your comment about the vent
fairing, I've seen them faired with foam and glass. I just chrome
mine, everyone knows chrome is fast. :)

Papa

RandyL
09-17-2008, 08:40 PM
Papa, glad to hear there are some fairings in the works, I'll check with John. Didn't know you were such a speed merchant, glad to hear it!

John, if you see this please update is as to what you have in the works!