The Wait is Over

[DesertFox4]

Thanks Steve. Saved your instructions. Odds now 60/40.

[Jfquebec]

Clean Job sir .. I like it

[DesertFox4]

Looking forward to flying with you again Jeff. Hopefully as a two ship.:)
Keep after that model 5. Arizona will be waiting for you.

[DesertFox4]

Thank you Jfquebec

[David47]

Very nice looking panel DF4, nice layout.

[DesertFox4]

Molte grazie David.:)

[DesertFox4]

I've been asked a couple times what product we used on my LLE system.
I miss quoted the 3M product number so went digging to find the correct item.
11909

[jiott]

What is the advantage of this 3M adhesive over the Hysol?

[DesertFox4]

For me it was ease of application.

[TahoeTim]

Could that be used on the factory leading edge plastic ? I see that it's available in a caulking gun style tube as well.


I am staring at that task and see a huge mess in my near future with hysol. I am considering the hysol gun to save time and lay a nice bead.

[DesertFox4]

I think it would work well Tim. Not sure about cost verses the hysol.

[efwd]

Hey Tim, buy the hysol gun and tubes. Applying the leading edge was the only thing Ive got to use it on so far but realize I should have purchased it long ago, Like Day One! My black half of the original Hysol has crystalized too much but its nearly all used anyhow. I was faced with buying another 5# of the stuff or just get the gun and tubes. No waste, just put the cap back on. Sweet. I may have used 2 tubes plus or minus a little to get the leading edges on. Gun does not hold tension on the plungers like a caulking gun would. Stop squeezing and the flow stops. put the cap on.
Eddie

[jiott]

I got the Hysol tubes for a recent project, but made the mistake of not getting the gun. I thought I could push the tube plungers by hand with my fingers, but about wore my fingers out. The gun must have way more leverage to push the thick 2-parts thru the mixing tubes. Live & learn.

[jiott]

I used the big syringes that Kitfox sells (cheap) for my main building project. Just measure and mix the Hysol 2 parts and drop it into the syringe. A nice bead can be laid just by pushing the plunger by hand. I even found I could reuse the syringes by letting the residue cure, and then cracking it out of the syringe. It doesn't stick very well to the syringe plastic.

[TahoeTim]

I think the factory should supply the tubes instead of the 5 lb cans. I'm gonna go with the 3M product.

[SSFoxBuilder]

Going with the 3M as well. I found the individual 10.5oz grey cartridges for a reasonable price here (https://www.boringsmith.com/p/3M-2120041596-Gray-3M-Polyurethane-Adhesive-Sealant-560-I8HGUF5LH7XQ).

[jrevens]

I just offer this for conversation, but I would be VERY careful about substituting adhesives for structural purposes, ease of use not withstanding. There can be a big difference between sealing a window or attaching a decorative panel, and attaching components of an airplane together. The 3M 560 might be adequate for something like the LLE, if its attachment to the wing will not pose a safety of flight issue if it comes loose. I'm not saying that it isn't good for that purpose - I don't know, considering the degree of wing flex, shear stress, peel & tensile stress, operating temperatures, etc. It is obviously a very flexible and relatively easy to use material, but it suffers greatly in the strength department compared to the Hysol 9460 or 3M 2216. For instance, the tensile strength of the 560 is listed as 580 psi while the 9460 is 4400 psi. The shear strength of the 560 is 145 psi, and the 9460 is 3500 psi.

[jiott]

Well said John! I agree 100%.

[jdmcbean]

Be very careful substituting products.. While we are in the "Experimental" category, the product you are considering has not been tested for strength, corrosion and or flex.
We would suggest staying what has been tested without careful study and consideration of all the parameters regardless of cost or ease of use.

[TahoeTim]

I live in a remote mountain tourist town. I thought I could grab tubes of the caulking at my local hardware store and use a caulking gun to make consistent beads. Since that idea fell through and I would have to order the caulk anyway, I ordered the 50 ml tubes of Hysol, gun, and mixing nozzles. I ordered 4 tubes and 2 mixing nozzles. Since each wing is a single event, I only need one nozzle per wing.

Once I get the LE's mounted, I can loan/sell the gun and extra materials to the next guy here on the forum. The snow storm should pass through today, allowing me to do both wings this weekend. :D

[DesertFox4]

Well summer temps have broken here finally for sure. In the 50's and 60's lately and time to lay up some carbon fiber parts. Started with the boot cowl yesterday. Thanks to DesertFox1 and Bill for guidance on my first carbon layup and the use of Bill's temperature controlled (heated) shop.
Started with a beautifully crafted boot cowl mold and prepped it by waxing many times then a couple days ago brushing on the release agent. Yesterday we cut fabric and then dive in with both feet. It will be a few days drying at these temps before part is pulled and trimmed to final shape. Lots of prep sanding, filling and more sanding in my near future.:)
Couple photos below.
12107
Boot cowl mold.

12108
Cutting cloth. Rolling cutter worked great on the carbon but the little
strand of Kevlar was resistant and had to be done with scissors.

12109
Wetting the cloth with resin after first brushing on resin to the mold.

12110
lots of dabbing resin into cloth. No brushing!

12111
Using a ridged roller on cowl part.

12112

[DesertFox4]

Also pretty much completed wiring of the Super Sport recently. Final project was making coax antenna cable for the MGL V6 comm radio and the Appareo ADS-B out transponder.
12113

First panel start up. No smoke.:)
Didn't have time to set up the MGL Explorer Lite parameters.
12114

[SkySteve]

Steve, that's beautiful!!!

[Paul Z]

Steve, you are going to have one sweet light weight bird. Looks like you are doing one heck of a nice job!

[DesertFox4]

Thanks gentlemen.

[jrevens]

It is beautiful, Steve! I think the carbon fiber is great too. Back before I bought my kit, I met and talked to Bill at Oshkosh, sometime before 2009. He mentioned to me at that time that they (he & Papa?) were working on or considering making carbon fiber parts, including cowling, for the Kitfox. It sounded great and he gave me his contact information. After I finally bought my kit I tried to contact him about that & ended up leaving a message. Never did get a reply, but it's good to see what you're doing. I've seen some of that stuff (beautifully done) on one of Papa's airplanes also. You guys are super craftsmen! Nice work!

[DesertFox4]

Kind of you to say John. :). I know in our small circle who the craftsmen are but I'm blessed to be able to build along side them both.

I haven't completely decided on how many parts will be of carbon yet. Inspiration comes on strong when seeing what Phil and Bill have accomplished in carbon but also I know how labor intesive items like the doors, wheel pants, seat pan are or the turtle deck Phil finished for his latest Kitfox. Incredible!

I do enjoy the challenge of learning a new building method though.

Attaining an empty weight of less than 750 lbs is a build goal I want to try for but for now it will likely be the nice tinted factory bubble doors and factory turtle deck. Those carbon wheel pants look mighty tempting though.

12119

[efwd]

I can attest to the fantastic work on Phil's turtle deck. My God, I can't believe it was made by hand. Its really cool looking to boot.
Eddie

[DesertFox4]

I agree Eddie. :D.
DesertFox1's carbon turtle deck. When the wings are unfolded it fits so well it looks like the trailing edge and T-deck are one. Just incredible. Phil and Bill also did the beautiful ring cowlings on the Bronze Lindy winning radial 7Super Sport.
Why I love building in this shop.:)
12125

12126

12127

[Paul Z]

That is just slick. I really like that over the sheet metal ones. It looks well thought out and well designed. You definitely will have a sow quality Kitfox, and I love the yellow and white paint! That yellow stands out!

[jiott]

I would call it more of a "show" quality, rather than "sow" quality! Ha-ha

[DesertFox4]

Boot cowl removed from mold and initial edge trim complete.
12131


Yellow tape shows final trim line that leaves 1 inch ledge for front cowls to overlay.
12132

Current weight before filling and sanding and paint, 28 oz.

[Jfquebec]

Just wowww...very very beautifull job..

[DesertFox4]

Boot cowl front edge trimmed and block sanded.
12140

Mounting holes drilled. Cleco'd in place.
12141

12142

[DesertFox4]

Preliminary trim of backside edges. Left it "fat" so can trim final door fit later.
12143

[colospace]

That boot cowl looks so nice! Will be a shame to have to paint it. Do you have a weight comparison with the standard fiberglass part?

[DesertFox4]

Gary, not sure what the factory boot weighs. After more trimming it will likely end up at 25 oz. before filling and paint. Not bad.

[jrevens]

I just weighed mine (no paint yet) - It is approximately 51 oz., so about 1.5 lbs. more.

[Paul Z]

That Boot Cowl is too pretty to paint!

[DesertFox4]

Great weekend of building. A nice 72 degrees in Phoenix today.
My Canadian buddy Norm stopped by to check on my progress and offer encouragement on Saturday.

Worked on the glare shield. We layed up this part last week. Trimmed close to final shape. Drilled mounting holes in the carbon boot cowl and trimmed it for door clearances.

12173

[efwd]

Oh Man! could you imagine having that carbon fiber run all the way from the panel to the spinner. How cool would that be?! Nice job Steve.

[DesertFox4]

Thanks Eddie. We thought about making the panel cover carbon but I have 3 GPS antennas that will reside under that cover. Signals won't penetrate carbon so couldn' use it there.
Next little carbon project might be baggage compartment floor boards.

[DesertFox4]

Beautiful day here in Phoenix. Sit in the sun and sand on the carbon fiber lower cowling scoop.
Over the weekend we started laying up carbon fiber baggage compartment floor boards.
Also made two boot cowl ventilation NACA ducts.


12353

[Rob3782]

I like the idea of installing the wing tip attachment strips early like you did instead of later after the fabric is on. I am at that step now and was thinking of going against the manual on this. Have never done any of this work before and was happy to see you do it. Especially since you have worked with fabric before.

[DesertFox4]

I'm getting my carbon fiber education on this build. Very exciting and rewarding to see this process. Still much to learn but my professors, Phil and Bill are very patient and generous with knowledge and time. Thank you guys.:)


Fresh air naca intakes bonded to inside of boot cowl at proper locations to miss
cockpit fuselage tubing. Little carbon doors will attach to regulate air intake.
12558

Shaping carbon fiber NACA ducts in boot cowl for pilot and co-pilot freah air intake.
12554

Finished with shaping. Now filling pin holes and lots of sanding to prep
for future painting will take place.
12555

Carbon doors to regulate the fresh air intake through the boot cowl naca ducts.
They will get painted when resin dries. The metal rod axels go through the drilled mounting bolts.
12557

Three carbon fiber floorboards fitted and placed in baggage compartment. Boards are are a sandwich of carbon, foam and carbon. Very light weight but strong. Will not paint these to save weight but they will be bolted down to prevent displacement during turbulance. The bolts will also provide attachment points for securing a cargo rentention net.
12556

[efwd]

Man thats looking good. I still think its a shame that the carbon fiber is going to be covered with paint.
Eddie

[jrevens]

Really good, Steve! That is looking like such a beautiful airplane!

[DesertFox4]

Thanks Eddie and John.:)

Making baggage floorboards.
12582

[DesertFox4]

Fitting tinted acrylic windshield over the weekend. Set it in the sun for a little while to "soften" it up some. 90 degrees this weekend so that didn't take long to make it slightly more pliable.
Fitted one wing on temporarily just to make sure there is just enough clearance for wing folding without hurting fabric or paint on the finished wing roots once the winshield is secured in it's final position.There is enough clearance.:)
12666

Looks like I'll get a good fit at the boot cowl also. Seems like a big step forward. Used a mini belt sander to remove excess acrylic material in the right spots.
Worked great. Will hand block sand all edges before final assembly with fine sandpaper.
12665

12667

Thanks to Papa and Bill P. for guidance and assistance. Would never even try moving one of these expensive windshields without help much less fitting it on and off several times.:eek:

[jrevens]

Good progress, Steve! How much, if any, material did you leave outboard of the root rib cap strip?

[DesertFox4]

John, there is about 1/4 inch maybe slightly more that will overlap the wing root rib on both sides. Also looks to be about the same amount of overlap over the turtle deck leading edge.

[jrevens]

That sounds just right. I am planning some overlap and was curious... thank you!

[jrevens]

Steve,
Is that the adhesive mounting tape on your rib cap strips, or foam mounting tape without adhesive on the top surface? Same with the sides - how do you plan to "permanently"
mount the windshield? You're giving me good incentive to tackle that now!

[Av8r3400]

I used velcro tape, the soft fuzzy side, from Wal-Mart's aviation department.

I put it on the cap strips and door frames to cushion the plexiglass.

[jiott]

I used the foam mounting tape without adhesive on the top surface. Used it on the top cap strip and the upper door frames. I am cheap and used it since it came with the kit for that purpose.

[DesertFox4]

John, it is a foam tape with a very tenatious adheasive on one side. I had to trim it to match the width of the capstrip. I'm thinking it may be a 3M product. I'll check for sure next weekend.

To attach the windshield to the capstrips I drilled holes for small black bolts with black lock nuts. I haven't drilled the windshield yet though. Hopefully next weekend we'll drill the holes after a little more block sanding and removal of excess plastic where it meets up with the boot cowl. Will try to remember to get photos of the rest of the process.

[Floog]

I used the stuff supplied with the kit, too (black, with one side adhesive). It's over 50 percent GONE now after 950 hrs. It has been sucked away from the upper surface of the windshield and sliding back from the forward edges. It takes a beating from the sun and airstream. The adhesives used on these products stays flexible, so it will eventually start migrating. The good news is I've never seen a drop of water come in around any portion of the windshield!

[DesertFox4]

Fun day. Flight in Desertfox 1 Vixen, not a bump to be found, then to the shop to finish up windshield install. Started on glareshield fitting. Dan B. stopped by the skunk works to visit and check on progress. Windshield fits great and looks great. Thanks Papa and Bill for the expert help.

12684


12682

[SkySteve]

DF !V,
That's an absolutely beautiful airplane. Nice work.

[DesertFox4]

Thank you Steve.

[jrevens]

I agree... it really is beautiful. That instrument panel with the formed edge looks very cool, Steve! A very nice arrangement too!

[DesertFox4]

Thank you John. Much appreciated.

[airlina]

Steve, if you and John Evens ever are at OSH with your great looking planes at the same time, its gonna be a shootout for that Lindy award. I'll always park mine way in the corner when you guys show up! Keep them photos coming! Bruce N199CL

[jrevens]

I'll be parking with you, Bruce. My airplane will definitely not catch too many eyes... I've done a lot of little things, details that I'm proud of, but I'm not building a real "show plane". If it was too pretty I wouldn't want to fly it to Alaska and all the back-country strips out here in the West ! Steve's airplane looks like it will really be exceptional... it's got it all - innovation and things /materials not seen before, or rarely. Plus it's got a beautiful paint job. The little bit of painting I've done on mine is a 10 foot job at best (OK, maybe 20'). Believe me when I say I cannot live up to all the nice comments guys like you have made, but thanks for the complements and lumping me in there with DesertFox4.

The way you're going you'll be flying before I do, Steve!

[DesertFox4]

Haven't posted for sometime. Working on strut fairings.
Some photos of the light weight strut fairings.
Four molds give us one set of strut fairings. We did this times two.
3 layers of light weight glass. Can be done in carbon but opted for glass.

Molds waxed several times, Bill laying on the PVA.
13885

13886
Glass layed in and waiting for the " thick mix" where the two pieces will be bonded together.
Thick mix in place and square tubes to retain flat shape where the two parts will be joined. Couple days for fairings to cure. Lots of trimming and sanding ahead.

[efwd]

The work there looks awesome. So much devotion to innovating. I so want to learn how fiberglass work is done. One can get very creative with the stuff I have noticed on this forum.

Eddie

[DesertFox4]

Next visit we'll have to put you to work Eddie.:)
I've really enjoyed seeing the processes for carbon and glass layup.
Got great teachers.

[jmodguy]

Looking good Steve! Looks like you are doing some of it the hard way! Keep it up!

Can't wait to see all these KFs lined up at Osh!

[DesertFox4]

The fairings came out of the mold looking really nice. The bottom photo is of the
fairings that go on the bottom end of the struts. They have just been rough trimmed to size and await fitting after the main strut farings are in place.
Very pleased with the quality and weight.
13919

13920

13921

[efwd]

Steve, I'll be over mid October. be prepared to explain how you make molds. :D
They look very light.
Eddie

[DesertFox4]

Eddie, I have no knowledge to impart to you on mold making yet. I know two guys that hold those secret wisdoms though.