Vans Lawsuit

[Av8r3400]

AvWeb Story

This is a very bad omen for us all. I hope (but have little faith) the judge will throw his out. The plaintiff seems to be suing everyone involved in the aircraft except the one responsible, the pilot, her father (deceased in the crash).

Without decending into political arguments, (then this thread will be deleted) what can be done to stop this before it becomes a trend and we are all done with experimental aircraft?

That is probably a rhetorical question. The way I see it is the only ones who can stop this is the courts.

[Dave S]

Larry & all,

Probaby way too early to tell what the disposition will be; however, as you indicated, actions like this can potentially have repercussions throughout the entire homebuilt industry and community.

I'd like to second Larry's comment that we stay away from political opinions and add that we should seek to understand and correctly influence logic where we can - and keep our lips zipped where we should. Good time to remember our basic civics education from 5th grade regarding the separation of powers - Executive, Legislative & Judicial - and who has the ball - meaning the judicial system now in this case.

One point for us to consider is the actual details of the suit.......details, details......can drive a person nuts, but the details will be argued in the court system.

Here is the link to the actual 16 page document filed which contains the complaint.

http://media.oregonlive.com/pacific-...crash.suit.pdf

Also included as an attachment to this post.

NTSB Probable Cause issued

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.av...no=5&pgsize=50

Our aviation associations (EAA, LAMA, AOPA) are better equipped to represent the logic and interests of the aviation community, and home builders in particular.

EAA's activities with Tech Counselors, Flight advisors and builder information has been a significant boost to safety; as well as the aircraft Kit industry's manufacturing of well designed and tested kits. So much good has been done to increase the safety of the experimental movement.

Do read the entire 16 pages - lot of information there. This is the complaint......the rebuttals will come in court and that has not been heard yet.

Sincerely,

Dave S
KF 7 Trigear
912ULS Warp Drive

[Kitfox Guy]

Thanks for info as it is very interesting reading. The American Civil justice system is a very interesting creature that I haven't seen replicated in any other parts of the world. Years ago I stopped giving airplane rides to friends and acquaintances for fear of civil liability. It is a shame but I had to do it to protect myself. The fear of losing my lifelong savings and investments, because a passenger is harmed in a flight is real and terrifying.

[gregsgt]

So how is it really different than giving rides to friends in acquaintances in an old car that you rebuilt or something like that?

[N981MS]

So how is it really different than giving rides to friends

The difference will be in the ignorance of the jurors. I would wager there will not be single a pilot on the jury; much less a builder. Likely they will all be drivers of cars.

You are correct though. You could be sued for everything you are worth for driving someone in your car if they were injured. Or for helping a little old lady cross the street if it went wrong.

[gregsgt]

That's the point. I run a business and from my point of view I take a risk every day in operation not to mention the fact that I break about a dozen laws every day that I never even knew existed...

I just couldn't live my life if I was scared of getting sued for every action I took. I just don't see this as any different from any other thing out there.

[Av8r3400]

I believe a common thread of this discussion will be "risk tolerance".

Greg, your tolerance for risk is much higher than 981MS' is. Personally I'd say I'm somewhere in between. We live in a very litigious society. This is something we need to keep this in mind in many aspects of our daily lives. I too, own a small business. My liability insurance is many thousands of dollars per year. It is the price of doing business. I've never been sued, but I surely wouldn't go without the insurance. I shudder to think what a company like Vans would have to pay after an action like this succeeds. All experimental aircraft kit manufacture would cease. Instantly.

I recently did a weekend course for Rotax training. There was a bunch of discussion on liability and even the instructor cautioned on giving open advice for fear of liability. There was a tech instructor there as a student who says he cautions all of his students to stay away from LSA craft due to conflicting information and fear of liability. I was truly saddened by this. There's an A&P near me who would love to go into business but the $20,000 price tag for basic liability insurance keeps him out. I'd bet this is a story that can be told 1000 times over.

I did a bunch of research before getting into experimental planes, and was unable to find a successful lawsuit against a previous owner or builder from a subsequent owner or pilot involved in an accident. This gave me some confidence to move forward into this wonderful realm. I would sure hate to see lawsuits like this become commonplace.

We have all heard of the person who decides to deregister and destroy a nice plane and sell it for parts, rather than sell it as a flyable craft. I believe this to be extreme, but who am I to evaluate someone else's risk tolerance.

[Esser]

I'm just glad I live in Canada when it comes to litigation. Something like this would be thrown out immediately. Even if it did go to court, it wouldn't be a jury. It would also be limited to $300,000 by law if they did win.

[Flybyjim]

It is always a sad time when an accident takes place and life is lost, it happens every day in every part of the world. Yes, we are in a society that some believe some one has to pay for their loss, I get that, not that I believe in that. Crap happens. As the president of our local EAA club this type conversation come to the forefront every time we schedule a Young Eagles rally about liability for the pilots and the officers of the club. We do have insurance coverage through EAA for these type events but to what total coverage, no one will really know until it is tested, we hope that will not happen, but I get the uncertain-tee of those involved. Because of these unknowns we went from 11 willing pilots to 3 pilots to fly the kids, after the last rally with only three pilots to fly, the stress became a bit to high to work all these flights so our YE program is on hold, sad for the kids and a statement about the state of affairs. I run two business's my wife has another and liability is always lingering with in our daily operations, it does not keep us up at night but than we have never been tested. I love airplanes, love to fly but love to build more than flying. I will make mistakes, it's human to do so, but I will always do my best to avoid the major ones and in the end I am responsible for my actions no someone else. I feel for Vans at this point and I hope the judge/jury looks at the total event, where is the pilot in this suit, not there, no deep pockets. Sorry this got so long, just my thoughts, must be why EAA has a risk management team for all us chapters.

[Kitfox Guy]

The difference will be in the ignorance of the jurors. I would wager there will not be single a pilot on the jury; much less a builder. Likely they will all be drivers of cars.....

Most of the public, including jurors presume that people who own airplanes are rich. We know otherwise, but the jurors are likely inclined to render large monetary awards if they feel the defendant is wealthy or insured. I lived in California most of my life, and there is a huge surplus of lawyers. According to the State Bar Association they have 225,000 members. Many are aggressively seeking work, and the potential money an attorney can make from a catastrophic aircraft accident lawsuit is significant.

I never really worried much about the passengers I was giving a ride as they had demonstrated an interest in general aviation and had a sense of the risk involved in flight. What concerned me more were the relatives or heirs of the passengers who perhaps did not share an appreciation of general aviation.

Everybody has their own level of risk they are willing to assume, I guess. Whatever works for you is OK with me.