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Thread: Oz build SS7

  1. #271
    Senior Member HighWing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oz build SS7

    The last two posts reflect my thinking exactly. I wish I could have quoted some of both Jim and Ross' comments. I had a great experience with Stick and Rudder on a seven year overdue BFR after our crash, but felt I spent too much time trying to find airspeed and altitude vs. flying by simply looking out the windows and just feeling the airplane with an occasional glance at instruments.

    All my instruments are Steam gauges, except for the flashing warning lights on both Low Fuel indicator, and back-up oil pressure indicator. I like the looks of the traditional panel. It somewhat reflects Ross' comment about "I don't like big screen TV's in houses, and certainly not in airplanes". In my opinion, The aesthetics of a traditional panel with the curved glare shield outline has much greater symmetry with round instruments. And needles are more intuitive for my aging brain than light bars. For sure, we all have our personal reasons for doing things and none are bad, but show me a traditional panel and I smile inside. Show me a panel with square things in them and the first thing I think of is $$$$.

    To flesh out my thinking on all this. There was an article in Kitplanes a couple of years ago regarding the EGT. They first came out in the mid 70s and the first gauges had five lines on them like an outstretched hand and a needle pointer. No numbers. The instrument was intended to give a relative temperature while leaning at altitude. We had one installed on our Cessna 170B. Then came the numbers. All of a sudden after 60 years of flying we became concerned about the actual temperature of our exhaust. Then the glass panels and the precision to set limits that would trigger alarms. The author's point? Of what real value are the actual numbers.

    When I first flew in the Lancair IV I helped build the owner pilot warned me that we might hear some alarms as he had just adjusted some of the limits on his Dynon. As we climbed out, sure enough, the alarms began to shout at us. The alarms alarmed me because I was concerned that he might be ignoring a real issue because he was expecting alarms from an inconsequential issue. As an aside, when I was in the middle of the 2 and a half year build time with him, I was following a Lancair Forum similar to this one and learned that people were dying in these puppies - lose an engine and you were going to do a dead stick at 70 kts if you didn't stall and spin in first - 100 kts on final. One guy did a study of NTSB statistics and found an almost 25% attrition rate with the IV with numerous fatalities. I had set a time frame for when I would consider flying in the airplane and this flight was well under my time/experience limit. The reason for the alarm? We had not reached the minimum engine temperature as established in his adjustment. To this day, I am still trying to understand why he needed to know this number and why it was so important that it needed an alarm.
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    Lowell Fitt
    Goodyear, AZ


    My You Tube Channel

  2. #272
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    Default Re: Oz build SS7

    So, it seems to me that what we learn from this discussion is that it boils down to:


    * what information is needed to safely and efficiently fly the way you
    want in, the places you want;
    * cost;
    * weather you are starting from scratch or converting a panel;
    * .......and learning.

    I agree with Jim that it doesn't make financial sense to instal steam gauges is starting from scratch - that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense - I would never underestimate the value of the feeling we get when strapping ourselves in to the Kitfox (in my case, until finished, in the hanger and out of sight of people who would just never understand!). That feeling probably prolongs our lives! And if the way the panel looks contributes to that, and does the job, well that's just great! However, let me show you two pics below. The first is of my last plane - a Mooney M20J. The second is of the current mockup of the kitfox panel. I think the Kitfox planned panel a bit more capability than the Monney panel ( excluding weather radar).

    The Mooney was great at what it did - high and fast. But when I first got it I was a fairly low time pilot ( still am) and this panel, well, challenged me! Interestingly, as I flew it I realised I was training my brain to scan selectively for information and integrate it. I learned to be comfortable with it. I have only flown with others in a glass cockpit and about 7-8 hours with Paul L. And I must admit I don't have the trained brain to scan the info at a level of competence as yet - but I know I can learn to! For me, the biggest challenge is to learn to use the information provided with ease and confidence so it doesn't become a distraction from looking out the window to do so. Interestingly, this thread has made me think of how to design a learning program to achieve a good level of scanning competence with these instruments prior to fist flight. so thanks for the thoughts.

    (by the way, I got a quote to upgrade the Mooney panel to glass - $75k! - Those steam instruments looked just fine after that!)

    cheers

    ross
    Mt Beauty, Victoria
    Oz
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    Last edited by rosslr; 05-16-2014 at 03:06 PM.

  3. #273
    Senior Member Pilot4Life's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oz build SS7

    Agreed...any design that makes the pilot feel better and appreciate his/her plane is great! Looking good Rosslr!
    Chris Holaday
    Looking at the Model 5 or newer for size!

  4. #274
    Senior Member jrevens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oz build SS7

    Like Lowell and some others, I like the look of round, individual gauges. Since I want a relatively simple VFR panel and don't require a full "6-pack", high-quality individual mechanical/electrical gauges were actually a cheaper option, vs Dynon or MGL, etc. Besides, it's what I grew up with, and sometimes the world just changes a little too fast for my liking.
    I remember a ride in a Lear 24, years ago, and loved the look of all the small round gauges. I have 6 individual 1.25" "engine/system" monitoring instruments, made in the USA & having a nice 270 deg. sweep that remind me of that look, plus 3 1/8 & 2 1/4" gauges for everything else.
    The glass panels have a nice, clean look... it's tempting sometimes. But when they're fired-up, there's just too much information in a small area for my older eyes & brain to fully appreciate.
    It's cool that the instrument panel is one of the places that we can really express our individualism with a homebuilt. I do think your panel looks great Rosslr!
    John Evens
    Arvada, CO
    Kitfox SS7 N27JE
    EAA Lifetime
    Chap. 43 honorary Lifetime

  5. #275
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    Default Official Kitfox Warning

    Warning:

    Never get between a kitfox pilot and their panel!


    R

  6. #276
    Administrator DesertFox4's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oz build SS7

    eifpanel.JPG
    This is the panel of the planes I learned to fly in. It took a while at first introduction just sitting in the aircraft learning the locations of all these instruments before I could fly it safely. Yes most manufactures put the primary "6 pack" in the same locations, which helps, but not always in the same order.

    I've seen a concerted effort by all the glass panels to locate "6 pack" info. in the same relative location on all of their screens and in the same presentation format. It takes very little time to learn locations of vital flight information.
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    DesertFox4
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  7. #277
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    Default Rib lacing underway!

    Well, it is always fun to start a new part of the project. I really enjoy learning the skills necessary. And as with everything, learning involves making 'approximations'! Anyway, learning we have and we are now underway. A few things we learned were that by putting a light under the wing it made it really clear where the rib cap edges were that allowed accurate placing of the reinforcing tapes. It was also good to guide the needle. After about three 'approximations' we learned how to get the right tension in the thread and the knots. We have fitted the LLE so we have stopped the lacing on the under wing at the same place that the upper LLE extends rearwards.

    cheers

    Ross
    Mt Beauty, Victoria
    OZ
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  8. #278
    Senior Member Pilot4Life's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oz build SS7

    The light...a little "trick-of-the-trade"...looking good Rosslr! Y'all, are doing a great job!
    Chris Holaday
    Looking at the Model 5 or newer for size!

  9. #279

    Join Date
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    Derby, England. UK
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    Default Re: Oz build SS7

    Hi Ross,

    You say ...'We have fitted the LLE so we have stopped the lacing on the under wing at the same place that the upper LLE extends rearwards.'

    I maybe talking rubbish and I don't know if this is a sensible or even a possible idea but I was wondering if drilling small lace holes in the LLE could be an answer to ensure the wing underside is stitched in the foward area?

    Cheers,
    Alan
    Last edited by alanr; 05-19-2014 at 05:40 AM.

  10. #280
    Senior Member AirFox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oz build SS7

    I used a 2.25" rib stitch needle to do single stitches on the bottom of the wing forward of the LLE.

    http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...clickkey=19433

    Worked pretty well for me. I do think you could live without the stitching forward of the LLE kit.

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