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Thread: Tailwheel a *****cat on grass but a wild animal on pavement

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Tailwheel a *****cat on grass but a wild animal on pavement

    "Slipping left you're pushing right rudder aren't you?"

    I guess so....Hmmm? Well then I don't know because it sure was easy to break loose to the right. Maybe the slipstream of air keeps it back?

    I am really starting to think that this tailwheel breaking free in flight is really not an issue. It sure seems like even if the wheel was sideways, it would straighten out and lock pretty quickly when it touched down. Especially with the elevator pushing the tail down.

  2. #72
    Senior Member Slyfox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tailwheel a *****cat on grass but a wild animal on pavement

    Quote Originally Posted by t j View Post
    Here's my Kitfox hard to land story. Mine was a monster. I ground looped it severely and damaged the plane...
    very nice landing, bravo.
    steve
    slyfox
    model IV 1200-flying
    912uls
    IVO medium in-flight
    RV7A-flying
    IO-360
    constant speed prop

  3. #73
    Senior Member av8rps's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tailwheel a *****cat on grass but a wild animal on pavement

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerrytex View Post
    "Slipping left you're pushing right rudder aren't you?" (Snip, snip)...
    I am really starting to think that this tailwheel breaking free in flight is really not an issue. It sure seems like even if the wheel was sideways, it would straighten out and lock pretty quickly when it touched down. Especially with the elevator pushing the tail down.
    Don't underestimate it becoming unlocked thinking it will straighten itself out. It can straighten itself if it is only slightly ctooked when it touches, but if it is a lot crooked when it touches you probably won't have time to react. I say that from experience...it's not fun to try and save the airplane when that tailwheel touches down really crooked. I'm pretty convinced that if I didn't have lots of tailwheel time in Avids and Kitfoxes that I would've rolled the thing up in a ball. But my experience saved that from happening, along with some perfectly timed good luck. If I was to estimare I believe 85+% of pilots would've destroyed that plane that day. Especially if they weren't as lucky as I was that day.

    That article from Budd Davisson talking about how things were happening so slow is a good example of a minorly crooked tailwhhel on touchdown. But if you are in a gusty crosswind and you are dancing on the pedals more than usual, that's when its likely to be a bigger issue. Believe me, when that happens you won't have the deal like Budd described as "happening real slow". A good way to describe it is like what happened to me, as soon as the tail touched I was going so hard left that I ended up going full power and taking off 90 degrees from the direction I was trying to land. The tires actually screamed from the side skidding (I'm lucky the gear didn't collapse from the intense side loading on it). And the worst part, that day of test flying it happened more than a dozen times before we finally figured out to pull the swivel plate, making it immediately a completely different airplane.

    The hardest part of this potential problem is that not everyone has experienced it when the tailwheel touches down really crooked. They've been lucky enough to experience only minor crooked, which is not even close to what you will experience if it is really crooked.

    I just know that I hope to never again experience one of tbose situations ever again in my life.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Tailwheel a *****cat on grass but a wild animal on pavement

    I fixed the toe in problem on my Kitfox 1 today. This is how I did it. I remember that the Avid factory manager said to bend the axle with a long pipe slid over the axle. I've done it before on an Avid MK IV by tieing a rope to the tailwheel, pulling on the rope with both hands and the 8' long pipe up against my belly while I was on my knees on the floor. It was tough to get the axle to bend but I eventually got it. Today I used my head a little bit. I hooked a chain to the tail of the plane and hooked a cable come a long to the end of the pipe and the chain and tightened it up. It took about 4 tries because I didn't want to bend the axle to far, and when all was said and done, I have about 1/16" toe out between the two tires. That is measuring to a mark on the front of the tires, and then rotating the tires to the back (180 degrees) and measuring to those same marks. I didn't check the 6" maule tailwheel to see how easy it unlocks, but I will before I fly it. Jim Chuk

  5. #75
    Senior Member av8rps's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tailwheel a *****cat on grass but a wild animal on pavement

    It truly is amazing how many of the planes we like to fly, whether it be Kitfoxes, Avid's Highlanders, etc have something wrong with the gear and the tailwheel. Yours is just another good example.

    And of course those that have a good handling airplane on the ground can't even understand what we are all talking about here, until the day they have the opportunity to fly a bad one. I've had a couple of these planes that were absolutely tailwheel *****cats, so when I one day test flew one that had a problem, I was completely caught off guard. There is a point where you can easily have too much confidence, and I learned that firsthand.

    I'm so glad to see people checking their airplanes. It is especially critical to do that if you think you will ever sell your airplane, as the next guy may have a minimal skill level that will get them in trouble fast with even a marginal handling airplane.

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Tailwheel a *****cat on grass but a wild animal on pavement

    Well, I did it today. I ordered a Matco. No real problem with the Maule but not sure what would have happened if I had used full rudder in flight and the tailwheel had released. I didn't want to find out. All this talk about the Maule has made me paranoid. So, mainly for my peace of mind, I bit the bullet. I called Kitfox and talked to Deb. They recommend the 8" single arm. I ordered the WHLT-8PL from Matco (Kitfox didn't stock it) which is the light weight version of the single arm. I needed to keep it light to keep my CG in check. All my flying is either off pavement or grass so no need to go heavy duty. I should be here in a few days. I'll let y'all know how it works out. James Thomas

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Tailwheel a *****cat on grass but a wild animal on pavement

    I ordered the same one too. Even if I never had or will have a problem with the Maule, the Pneumatic tire I am sure will be smoother and quieter. I guess any excuse will do to justify spending $250. Ha!

  8. #78
    Senior Member HighWing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tailwheel a *****cat on grass but a wild animal on pavement

    Reading this thread with all the mechanical implications, there is one more possibility I want to throw out. This idea came up in a conversation I had yesterday with a friend and neighbor who has 1900 hours in is Model IV Kitfox. In the old days before CFIs with Kitfox experience lots of the new Kitfox flyers were essentially checking themselves out and finding challenges on landing. What came from that discussion was the realization that the Kitfox cowl and panel layout was not conventional from a “Cessna” perspective. The round panel didn’t give a level wing reference and the side of the cowl didn’t give a straight ahead reference. Most guys found that they were landing in a crab - lining up the airplane and runway with the side of the cowl that was not straight ahead, but tapered toward the spinner. This became readily apparent when I was forced to change from a neighbor and friend CFI I was using for my Biannual Flight Reviews. Don loved my Model IV and after me doing my thing, he always asked permission to play a little bit. One thing He loved to do was the rocking your wings routine over the runway first touching one wheel then the other. I could never convince him that he was always touching in a crab. This was proven by the fact that after each flight review - twice only - I was forced to replace both tires. The rubber at the outside of each tire was always ground off, exposing the cords.

    The solution to the problem with lining up for landing was the tape on the windshield trick. This was done by lining up the airplane exactly facing a distant object – pine tree or pole, then sitting in the pilot seat and placing a 1/8” piece of tape - up and down - exactly over the tree. I never took off the tape on my first IV and on my new airplane I have the indicator pictured below.
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    Last edited by HighWing; 05-27-2016 at 12:25 PM.
    Lowell Fitt
    Goodyear, AZ


    My You Tube Channel

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Tailwheel a *****cat on grass but a wild animal on pavement

    I know that's a point that's stressed in the How to Fly a Kitfox booklet. If a guy is used to flying a single seat, or tandem configuration it will be a problem as well cause he is used to looking through the center of the prop. I had that issue with my first Avid until I put a mark on the windshield. Other wise I as wanting to see the prop straight ahead of me and so a bit of rudder would make it so. A quick glance at the ball just before landing helped as well. A friend of mine trained for his Sport pilot lic. in a Champ, got his ticket, and then bought a Chief. He had all kinds of trouble making the adjustment. One ground loop after another. Jim Chuk

  10. #80

    Default Re: Tailwheel a *****cat on grass but a wild animal on pavement

    all good points about the round cowl, however...

    we would touch down gently and straight as an arrow

    all was well until the tail touched then it would swerve uncontrollably

    no doubt that the round cowl takes some getting used to but this plane has a mind of it's own

    every other KF I have flown was pretty gentle and easy

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