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Thread: Re-registering kitfox possible?

  1. #1
    Bluebird19kf's Avatar
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    Default Re-registering kitfox possible?

    So, I am in the middle of rebuilding a model 3 that I bought in airworthy condition. I am redoing most of the plane including engine,gear,instruments,covering, etc, etc. Is it possible to build as if i am the original builder and apply for new n number/ registration. Where would I look for information to do this?

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    Super Moderator Av8r3400's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re-registering kitfox possible?

    The short answer is no.

    The long answer is somewhere between probably not and maybe. You will have to convince the FISDO or DAR that you built the airplane from "parts".

    I went through this same decision when rebuilding the Mangy Fox. I chose to just embrace the idea that I am not the manufacturer. There's a couple of reasons not to.

    1 - I don't mind the idea of another person looking at my plane once a year to "check my work" so to speak.

    2 - I only had a 5 hour phase one flight testing period (because I changed the prop!) rather than the 40 hours needed if I were to have become the manufacturer.

    3 - I paid state sales tax when I bought the airplane. If I were to have "built from parts" I would have to calculate the cost of these parts, less taxed receipts, and pay sales tax again to register the plane.
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    Default Re: Re-registering kitfox possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Av8r3400 View Post
    The short answer is no.

    The long answer is somewhere between probably not and maybe. You will have to convince the FISDO or DAR that you built the airplane from "parts".

    I went through this same decision when rebuilding the Mangy Fox. I chose to just embrace the idea that I am not the manufacturer. There's a couple of reasons not to.

    1 - I don't mind the idea of another person looking at my plane once a year to "check my work" so to speak.

    2 - I only had a 5 hour phase one flight testing period (because I changed the prop!) rather than the 40 hours needed if I were to have become the manufacturer.

    3 - I paid state sales tax when I bought the airplane. If I were to have "built from parts" I would have to calculate the cost of these parts, less taxed receipts, and pay sales tax again to register the plane.
    I still can't understand the 5 hours of flight testing for a prop change. Same diameter, same pitch, but different manufacturer and you have to waste 5 hours boring holes in the sky...

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    Bluebird19kf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re-registering kitfox possible?

    So I say I paid 1000 for some wings and a fuselage and take a bunch of pictures of the rest of the build. Where will I run into isssues? All of those points are valid but I think it would be cool to strip it completely and rebuild with me as the builder. I'm not saying that's the way to go just trying to weigh the options. Thanks av8r3400

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    Super Moderator Av8r3400's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re-registering kitfox possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebird19kf View Post
    So I say I paid 1000 for some wings and a fuselage and take a bunch of pictures of the rest of the build. Where will I run into isssues? All of those points are valid but I think it would be cool to strip it completely and rebuild with me as the builder. I'm not saying that's the way to go just trying to weigh the options. Thanks av8r3400
    Again it will depend on the DAR/FISDO rep that inspects your project. Lately around here, they are very interested in seeing not just a builders log, but photos of you, the builder, working on the plane in various stages, showing that you truly built 51% of the plane. Recovering a set of purchased wings and fuselage won't cut it for making that magic 51% of the plane if the inspector is "by the book".
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    Bluebird19kf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re-registering kitfox possible?

    Gotcha. Would you recommend calling my local fisdo before hand with that question? How do I figure out who that is? Sorry but I am totally new to how this experimental buisiness works and I appreciate the guidance.

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    Bluebird19kf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re-registering kitfox possible?

    Also, I truly don't feel like I will be cheating the 51% rule. I'm only exploring this because I feel like I might as well have just built the plane from scratch.

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    Default Re: Re-registering kitfox possible?

    The plane has a serial number. When a person requests a N number a bill of sale, with serial number, must be submitted. So the aircraft is already in the FAA system. A plane can only be built once. Of course you can rebuild the aircraft but you cannot do the condition inspection needed in order to meet the DAR inspection requirements. Only the original builder ,if that person has been issued an experimental repairman certificate, or an FAA licensed mechanic of a certain level of license can do that type inspection.

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    Senior Member av8rps's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re-registering kitfox possible?

    You do not have to prove you built 51% of the plane. Otherwise no one could ever sell an unfinished project because you could never get paperwork from the FAA to fly it, which we know isn't true. 10 different people could buy the plane and work on the plane, all contributing a different percentage of the build, and then you could be the 11th guy to buy it, and then do the last 3% to complete it. That would all be legitimate. When you call the DAR or FAA to inspect the aircraft their role is to verify it is built to meet safety and compliance regs, and if it does they will then issue an airworthiness certificate for the aircraft.

    The only questionable part of all that is whether or not they will provide you with the repairman certificate. If no one else has ever had the repairman certificate, AND you have assigned yourself as the manufacturer in all the paperwork, unless they feel you know nothing about the aircraft you have completed there should be no reason you should be denied a repairman certificate.

    Of course, there can be inspectors that might decide to make up their own rules, or maybe just misinterpret the regs, but if that happens then you need to appeal to higher authorities as the inspectors are inspectors, not legislators. The regs are the regs.

    The 51% rule simply states that the aircraft has to be built 51% by the amateur builder (or builders). In other words, you cannot purchase a kitplane from a manufacturer that is more than 49% complete when it arrives at your door. That's why kitplane manufacturers get their company and kit models approved on the FAA's list of 49% kits so people can buy a kitplane knowing it meets the FAA requirements TO BE AMATEUR BUILT.

    There always seems to be a lot of confusion about this subject. But it really is pretty simple. However recertifying an existing, pre-registered aircraft adds some potential issues to all this. I personally would use the existing airwothiness certificate and befriend an A&P to help do your annuals. I think it would be simpler overall.

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    Super Moderator Av8r3400's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re-registering kitfox possible?

    By a friend who just had his plane inspected a couple of weeks ago, he needed to show in his logs and photos that he built 51% of the plane, in order to get the repairmans certificate.

    These were the words of the FISDO inspector. Yes, that's his interpretation of the rules, but that is the bar we must uphold for him to pass the paperwork.
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