New member--searching for my 1st Kitfox!

[JustinMorrison]

Hello!

My name is Justin. I'm living in wonderfully windy Cheyenne Wyoming--and while I am new to the forums I have been actively learning tons of good information from them while simultaneously being on the hunt for my first bird. I have always wanted to fly/own a plane, and now that possibility has come to life. I have my mind set on a purchasing a Kitfox in the very near future, and learning to fly/attaining my PPL in it. I am a complete newbie to flight for the most part, 5 hours of instruction in a 152 so far, and the flight bug has caught me good. (I'm fully aware that a Kitfox is not in the same class as the boring cessna, and from everything that I have read/watched, a Kitfox is exactly what I want in a plane) Barnstormers has been my second home aside from my daily job (Active Duty Air Force stationed at F.E. Warren) and I have seen several planes that caught my eye. My hopes/wants in a plane are 4 stroke (Rotax or Jabiru is okay with me) and a nicety would be if said plane came with a trailer, but beggars cant be choosers right? My budget right now is right at $20,000 even for a plane, and I'm hoping to spend additionally less than $1,000 on an open converted aircraft/boat trailer. Do these budget goals seem a little to low for my wants, or do you believe that something could be out there in that range with 4 stroke power? There is two planes I would like on barnstormers right now, one is an Orange KF IV in Washington with the Jab 2200, and the other is a Red one in Delaware with some nifty $100 bill wing art (which is also listed on our classifieds here) which also has the 2200. Unfortunately they are a few thousand above my current budget. So the hunt continues. Just thought I would post my intro and I look forward to being an active member of these forums, I will keep this post updated as the search goes on!

-Justin

[jiott]

I think $20000 is too low for a good model 4, 5, 6 or 7 unless you want a project or something with less than good craftsmanship and remaining reliable life. I would personally stick with the Rotax 912 or the lightweight Lycomings or Continentals.

[PapuaPilot]

I agree with Jim. I would avoid ones with anything but Rotax or certified engines.

If you buy a $20K model 4 or higher Kitfox it may end up actually costing you $25-50K by the time you fix things up. I happens all of the time. I have a friend that bought a Cessna 140 for under 15K and he put several thousand dollars into it the first year. He could have bought a cherry C-140 for $20-25K and came out way ahead. Another friend bought a "bargain" used Sea-Ray and had to replace the Rotax engine (about $20K) during the ferry flight to get it to his home. You are always better buying an aircraft that is being flown and in good to excellent condition. They turn out to be the real bargains and you should be able to just go fly them. Save up some more $ and buy a nice Kitfox.

Make sure you consider the true cost of ownership for an airplane.
1. There are the running costs for fuel, oil, overhaul reserve and routine maintenance/parts that you can easily calculate the cost per hour.
2. Next there is the fixed/non-running costs which include hanger/storage, insurance, database subscriptions, the annual inspection, some parts, miscellaneous supplies, etc. You will have to pay these each year regardless of the number of hours flown.
3. If you want to do any upgrades you need to budget for those.
4. Lastly there will be the costs when unexpected things happen like a breakdown or if there is an accident. There will be the costs to make the repairs, replace parts, rebuilding, etc. This could also include costs to retrieve the plane, hotels, car/trailer rental, airline tickets, etc. This one is hard to calculate, but having the proper insurance would help reduce the costs.

Best of luck in finding a Kitfox. If you find one make sure you ask for help in doing a pre-buy inspection. The people on this forum are very helpful.

[efwd]

Welcome to the Forum Justin. Happy Veterans Day!
Eddie

[WWhunter]

I will '3rd' the comments on getting one with the Rotax. I am only mentioning this after having a few friends that own or have owned (have is the operative word) the Jabiru. Some have had good luck with them but the guys I know that have had them in colder climates seem to have issues with them.

Finding a good one with a Rotax in your price range is possible but very hard since I personally know of several people looking for the same thing. You NEED to have the money in hand and ready to jump instantly!! No dwelling on it, as it will be gone FAST! I think there are already two or three people that have posted similar threads on this site or similar sites that are looking for the same 'deal'. The $20-25K budget seems to be the common theme.

As mentioned, the additional costs that will come after buying can not be avoided, so don't blow your entire budget on the plane and expect it to be perfect until you can save up more money to fix it. Keep a reserve for just these occasions. Personally I would want a 20-25% reserve. Basically having $4-5000 spare change left after purchasing the plane will allow for less issues in the long term. I have owned or currently own several aircraft and this has been my personal experience.

I would probably look at finding a project that is close to completion if you are on a budget and are willing/able to commit time to finishing it. This will help in the long run as you can apply for the repairman certificate and then you will save money in the future by being able to do your own condition inspections. This is no small issue, as it can be difficult to find a shop locally that will preform and sign off an experimental condition inspection! Lots of things to consider.

As far as finding one already outfitted with a trailer, good luck! I have seen them for sale but most of them seem to be the earlier model 1-3's that have them. I guess it is for the owner to tow it home after that 2-stroke pukes on them! Just joking you 2-stroke guys!! LOL Having said that, building one isn't hard. I made one out of a boat trailer I converted. Only took a day or two and I made it so I can remove the airplane mount and still use the trailer for its intended use.

[JustinMorrison]

Hey guys, thanks for the detailed responses! I have read several debate threads about the Rotax vs Jabiru and other miscellaneous engines, and it does seem that the Rotax is the favorite of the crowd, which makes sense seeing in how its used in many different light aircraft applications.

What I didn't come across was issues with the Jab in the colder climates, which is definitely something I have to consider, seeing as how we get some nice brisk days here in the midwest, which would make for nice flying at our field elevation of ~6000' as long as the engine is happy. It seems the consensus is that my current in hand budget is a little low, so I will work on bringing up my expendable money about another $5,000.

I have budgeted in the extra costs of plane ownership into my monthly budget, as well as the cost of flight lessons, which allowed me my $20k spending limit initially, but I will gather up some more funds here and hopefully secure a nice 912 powered Fox!

With the holidays around the corner, maybe I will be able to score a nice build from someone who is needing the holiday cash

[Dave S]

Justin,

I am very familiar with Wyoming and all of it's natural splendor......a real treat to see it out the window of a Kitfox. IMHO - the Kitfox line is ideal and frugal (compared to other options) for operating out of the high plains.......kind of amusing back here in flatland Minnesnowta when the local AWOS spews the density altitude "Caution....Density altitude 2,300 feet". The kitfox deals with density altitude and short strips really well......even my home 'port, which is famed for having the shortest paved runway in the state.....I can still take the options of exactly which part of the runway I actually want to land on.....while people with their Warriors come to the field to practice "short landings for real".

Economics plays a role for all of us as this sport certainly is not without it's challenges this way; but, the Kitfox is one of the more reasonable steeds out there.....extra points if you are the builder and get your Repairman's certificate...OK, I'll admit it.....one of my annual condition inspections cost me $28.13....$28 for the nav light lens I dropped on the floor and 13 cents for the cotter pin I wanted to replace.

Finding one for sale? The sentiment expressed in other list comments that they get snatched up quickly is something that I have also observed. Kitfox owners are notorious for keeping their planes and flying them. I will never understand the logic of the marketing industry......back when I was renting, everybody ignored me.....Now that I have the kitfox...I keep getting Trade a plane all the time.....like, don't they realize that a person who does not have a plane might be an actual buyer?......while those of us who now own a kitfox probably won't be either buying or selling?.....huh?

Fixed costs like insurance......I checked with Insurers before I built....what did I hear about the Kitfox from them???? mostly "We like Kitfoxes"...,....That probably is insurance speak for lower premiums and fewer claims.

The Kitfox is a reasonably priced and easy to pay for the upkeep.

Wish you a good vet's day

Dave S. - US Army/Vietnam

[WWhunter]

Great post Dave!

I think we have all given Justin plenty to think about. I had mentioned the condition inspection due to my experience in owning certified and AB built by someone else. Glad that Dave mentions how cheap he is able to do his own inspections, as this is no small matter as it can cost many hundreds of dollars every year if you have to pay someone else to do it. No repairmans certificate for me and I had the issue of trying to find an A&P that would sign it off.

The biggest issue up here is finding someone that will sign off the Rotax. Luckily I was able to find someone that knows me and my abilities with mechanical stuff that he is willing to sign my S7 off. By the way, if you get up here to God's country, please stop in. I have an 1800 foot strip at my place. Granted, I am in the woods, but nothing the KF can't handle. I am just east of Itasca State Park.

One of the guys that I mentioned with the Jabiru lives in Gillette, WY and he mentioned hard starting (?) and maybe the issue of getting it to run correctly when it was cold...plus his dealing with the winds in his area.

Keith
Thanks to all the Veterans out there!!
US AF veteran plus my wife is retired Army (but I won't hold that against her) LOL

[Peteohms]

I suggest you expand your search to include a Kitfox III with a 912. I bought a 3 in 2008 that had 320 or so hours on it with a 912 in it. I now live in central TX and have flown it to Oshkosh 4 times and Sun n Fun twice. Been to SC, MS, AZ, NM and points between I have put 800 + hours on it and really love it. I too was looking for a 4, but this one was within my price range and close enough to fly home easily. Yea, I cruise at only 90 mph, but flying is flying. I can get off quick and land short. Good enough for me.

[JustinMorrison]

Dave and Keith,

Thanks for your replies! You bring up some good points concerning the annual inspection and/or finding someone willing to accomplish one. I have a local EAA chapter in Greeley Colorado that I plan on contacting and joining once I fully commit to purchasing a bird, and seeing if they will be willing to work with me on attaining my PPL in the Kitfox.

There is a Cessna flight school here in the city of Cheyenne, but they operate out of the local National Guard base and I would much rather learn in a quieter setting on a grass strip with this type of craft, which is what they have just across the border in Colorado for me. Not that I don't need to know how to operate out of a larger airport, but that will all come with time