Thinking about Kitfox or Avid

[Gimbles]

This is not a kitfox vs avid question. I am pretty well sold on either one, Avid MKIV or the kitfox equivalent which I have not researched yet.

My mission perimeters are,

2-place
STOL
Can be fitted with floats
Cruise at about 100mph
baggage capacity for 50 lbs bag
allow other options for engines

I've seen a few projects for sale. My question is regarding taking on another persons project and the possibility of the workmanship being poor resulting in a unsafe plane. In other words, some place have more room for error or "subjectivity" in the build, like a Long EZ for example. Is the Avid/Kitfox an easy enough kit that it is hard to screw it up?

Thanks.
Jack

[Av8r3400]

From my experience and observations, the Kitfox kits have always been more refined. For what ever reason there are quite a few fairly "ugly" Avids, where the Kitfoxes, even the early ones, seem to be better looking and better built.

I believe this to be a function of just a better assembled kit and instruction manual, making for a better airplane.

I may be off base, but that is what I have observed...

[Dave S]

Jack,

"Is the Avid/Kitfox an easy enough kit that it is hard to screw it up?"...for the record, no aircraft is screw-up proof......fact of life...

I would consider that when buying a pre-owned kit the wild card is what level of quality the original builder adhered to on assemblies you cannot possibly examine for worksmanship. The good news on a tube and fabric aircraft is you can pretty much examine the major welded components if it is not covered but might not know if bolts were overtorqued or rivets not quite placed as well as they should have been - but there are cheap fixes for those items.

On a kitfox, I would be most concerned about craftsmanship on the wings and bonded parts. For the wings, if the inserts are installed and riveted you can't take it apart and have no way of empirically knowing if someone crammed the inserts and galled the inside - the outside you can see, the inside you can't. Likewise, you have no way of knowing if the correct porportions of ingredents were used in mixing the hysol, nor how good a job was done with prepping and cleaning before bonding ribs, etc. You can measure to figure out if the ribs are spaced correctly so you can attach the flaperons.

A person can estimate workmanship based on what you find with the things you can observe...if that is cruddy, don't expect the unseen parts to be better.

On the plus side, I think it is fair to assume that there is a variety of workmanship involved with aircraft that are currently flying and I don't believe anyone has ever broken a wing off a kitfox - at least not in the air......not that I would ever use that as a standard - but it does reflect the durability of the design.

Ideally, a person would find a kit that is not assembled at all; or, with the wings unassembled - I'd have no hesitation about being able to evaluate a kit in that condition.

There are many high quality aircraft that people have built or almost built....the issue is to weed out the outliers which may have less than acceptable workmanship.

Sincerely,

Dave S
KF 7 Trigear
912ULS Warp Drive
St Paul, MN

[av8rps]

I started flying Avid's in the mid 80's and have flown pretty much every version of them, including over a thousand hours on floats on three different models. They are great Stol airplanes and work exceptionally well as a float plane. The kit is pretty hard to mess up, so I wouldn't be any more concerned about kit quality than I would if it were a Kitfox, a Rans, a Highlander, etc. In fact, for strength the Avid is probably the winner...(just look at the fitting where the wing strut attaches to the fuselage to see one of the best examples of why I say they are strong). I won't get into more construction details here as I think Dave S did an excellent job explaining what to look for.

Unfortunately I have to agree with av8r3400 about the average build quality of Avid's vs the average Kitfox. But I wouldn't attribute that to the kit quality. What I learned over the years is that the average Avid owner is less concerned about cosmetics, rather preferring a lighter and less costly high performance aircraft that he can quickly assemble. Kitfox owners imho have always been more attracted to the cosmetics, and that shows in the fleet. Also, the Avid has consiberably fewer parts than the Kitfox, so it is easier to build, is therefore lighter, and generally will perform better on the same horsepower.

The Avid mark 4 utilizes an undercambered wing which makes for superior Stol. But that draggy undercambered airfoil makes it much more difficult to get that 100 mph cruise you desire. Kitfox models 4 and newer use a much faster wing, making that 100 mph cruise pretty easy to attain, while still providing decent Stol characteristics. The Kitfox also makes a really good floatplane. (I fly a 912ul Kitfox 4 on amphibs today).

The biggest downside of the Avid in my opinion is that almost all the used Avid's you will find are powered by 2 stroke engines. They started putting 4 stroke 912 Rotax engines in them just before they sold (and shortly after went out of business). A 912 powered Avid Mark 4 is a very nice airplane, but hard to find. But if you don't mind a 2 stroke, you will be able to find and buy them quite reasonably. And if you take the time to learn the 2 stroke engine, you will have a lot of fun with the Avid. (Check out the video on you tube titled "The Avid Advantage" and "Snaps Super Stol Avid Flyer Seaplane" to see what the 2 stroke Avid's can do).

With all that said, the kitfox 4 (or newer) with a Rotax 912 sounds like a better fit for you in my opinion. I love my model 4 Kitfox floatplane. But I also really enjoyed all the years I flew my Avid. It's really more about what you want the airplane to do, and what your budget is. They are all great airplanes.

[Gimbles]

Good info, thanks all.

The biggest downside of the Avid in my opinion is that almost all the used Avid's you will find are powered by 2 stroke engines.

Can you easily swap them out with the 4-stroke, or is the airframe different and can't handle the higher speed and added weight?

Also, in researching the Avid it does not appear that you can buy a kit anymore? Apparently Aidale aircraft have taken over but there website is sparse with information. www.airdale.com The site does mention an upgraded version of the MKIV they call the airdale Backcountry, which sounds really nice. But they don't mention if they even sell the kit or anything else about it. Does anyone have any information about this plane. They also say that you can upgrade the MKIV with the backcountry changes, is this a kit? Could I buy a used MK IV and then upgrade that with the Backcountry mods, that sounds like a great way to have a better plane at a lower price.

In doing more research more planes are coming up as possibilities that I need to consider. Not sure if I should open this up to more questions on this forum. But now I am considering these planes:

Avid MK IV, Kitfox 4, Rans s7, Highlander, Backcountry (if it actually exists), Taylorcraft, Aeronca Champ.

More about my goals, and I forgot to give my price range.

Looking for something no more than $25k

I live in a community on a tropical island in a 3rd world country. We are looking for something for additional transport. We want a float plane so we can fly over the water giving us more safety in the event of a engine failure.
I am a low time pilot, so I want something I can handle safely. Here is a list of our needs and priorities in a plane.

- Above all else we want something safe, reliable, and strong (tough).
- Under $25k
- Able to carry at least 50lbs of baggage, actually 100lbs would be best but not sure any of these can do that.
- Be able to easily fit amphibious floats, but also remove and put regular gear on if need.
- Regular gear would allow for dirt, gravel, grass landing with good STOL capability.
- Cruise at 100 mph - this is not a hard requirement but a definite nice to have.
- Plane can accommodate other engine options. I know auto conversion are difficult and aren't particularly compatible with my top requirement of safety. But one thing about the Backcountry that is appealing is that is uses a Subaru engine, which is a lot cheaper than the 912.
- Not be too tight for two people. I'm 6'1 185 so I'm hoping for a little bit of room. I sat in a kitfox once, but I think it was one of those low wing sportier kitfox models, I can't remember now. But anyway I remember is was way too small for me to have any semblance of comfort.

BTW - cosmetic appearance is the least of our concerns.

Thanks all for the advice, hope you can point me in the right direction.

[Paul Z]

Jack,

You might go look at this post. You may be able to work a deal. It is an older Kitfox Kit.
http://www.teamkitfox.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=6483

Paul

[av8rps]

I've responded to your questions below in the underlined bold...

Can you easily swap them out with the 4-stroke, or is the airframe different and can't handle the higher speed and added weight?
Yes, an Avid Mk 4 can easily handle a 912, Subaru, VW, or a small Continental. But if anything other than a 912 they will get nose heavy fast. Plus only the 912 will make tbem light enough to be an amphib. The airframe doesn't need modification except for a new motor mount and minor cowl modification.

Also, in researching the Avid it does not appear that you can buy a kit anymore? Apparently Aidale aircraft have taken over but there website is sparse with information. www.airdale.com The site does mention an upgraded version of the MKIV they call the airdale Backcountry, which sounds really nice. But they don't mention if they even sell the kit or anything else about it. Does anyone have any information about this plane. They also say that you can upgrade the MKIV with the backcountry changes, is this a kit? Could I buy a used MK IV and then upgrade that with the Backcountry mods, that sounds like a great way to have a better plane at a lower price.
Airdale is basically just supplying parts for Avids, and unfortunately no complete kits. So probably not practical to go that route. If you decide you want an Avid, just find a Mark 4 kit, project, or a flying example as even a stock Avid is a great airplane

In doing more research more planes are coming up as possibilities that I need to consider. Not sure if I should open this up to more questions on this forum. But now I am considering these planes:

Avid MK IV, Kitfox 4, Rans s7, Highlander, Backcountry (if it actually exists), Taylorcraft, Aeronca Champ.
An older Avid or Kitfox are the only choices that will meet most all of your criteria. Rans S7 will be well over your budget, but will meet most of your other criteria. The Highlander will meet or exceed all of your criteria, but will be at least 3 times your budget. The Taylorcraft and Champ will meet a lot of your criteria but neither were ever certified with amphib floats, so cannot be fiitted with amphibs. They can however use straight floats, but to work well you will need at least 85 hp engines as stock 65 hp engines on either airplane will be very underpowered for float operations. Oh, and all these choices (except for the Highlander or a newer Kitfox) will not be able to carry that 100 lbs of baggage weight when on amphib floats.

More about my goals, and I forgot to give my price range.

Looking for something no more than $25k

I live in a community on a tropical island in a 3rd world country. We are looking for something for additional transport. We want a float plane so we can fly over the water giving us more safety in the event of a engine failure.
I am a low time pilot, so I want something I can handle safely. Here is a list of our needs and priorities in a plane.

- Above all else we want something safe, reliable, and strong (tough).
- Under $25k
- Able to carry at least 50lbs of baggage, actually 100lbs would be best but not sure any of these can do that.
- Be able to easily fit amphibious floats, but also remove and put regular gear on if need.
- Regular gear would allow for dirt, gravel, grass landing with good STOL capability.
- Cruise at 100 mph - this is not a hard requirement but a definite nice to have.
- Plane can accommodate other engine options. I know auto conversion are difficult and aren't particularly compatible with my top requirement of safety. But one thing about the Backcountry that is appealing is that is uses a Subaru engine, which is a lot cheaper than the 912.
- Not be too tight for two people. I'm 6'1 185 so I'm hoping for a little bit of room. I sat in a kitfox once, but I think it was one of those low wing sportier kitfox models, I can't remember now. But anyway I remember is was way too small for me to have any semblance of comfort.

BTW - cosmetic appearance is the least of our concerns.

Thanks all for the advice, hope you can point me in the right direction.

One of the biggest obstacles is going to be the 25k budget. But it can be done.

Based on my experience with my 80 hp 912 powered Kitfox 4/1200 that I fly on amphib floats, that's what I would try to find. 912 powered Model 4's are a bargain in my opinion, and can still be had for 25 k (without floats). Oh, and ironically I am just over 6 ft tall, and 185 lbs, and fit in my Kitfox 4 just fine, even with passengers bigger than myself. I do however have bubbled doors, as they give the cabin approx 5 inches of added width.

And then later I'd find or build a set of Zenair or Czech 1150 or 1200 amphib floats for it. Then the only thing you will probably not meet from your list is being able to legally carry that 100 lbs of baggage (on amphibs). But all other criteria will be met. And in an emergency you can carry that baggage weight if you have to. The airplane will easily handle that weight, but unfortunately the paperwork won't

[Gimbles]

Thanks.
I'm seeing a lot of Avid Flyers out there on the cheap, but most of them are B models (not the Mark IV). What is the big difference here? Is the Mark IV a must have for my criteria? Also the question about not using a 2-stroke but a 912 or the like was relative to the earlier Avids like the B.

[avidflyer]

The B model Avid Flyer with the STOL wing has a gross weight of 911 lbs. The Avid Flyer MK IV with the heavy hauler wing has a gross weight of 1150 lbs. The MK IV it going to be a heavier plane empty as well. I've had 2 MK IVs and they weighed about 585 each. Jabiru engine in one and the other had a 582 Rotax. The B model will probably weigh about 525 with the same engine. Jim Chuk

[LORENZ]

It's been a year, have you pulled the trigger on an Avid MkIV yet?