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Thread: New to flaperons

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Jan 2015
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    Calgary
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    14

    Default New to flaperons

    Hi guys.....2nd post, lots of questions...this one for now.

    Finally got to fly my new kitfox 4 for the first time yesterday. Was a beautiful day in Calgary. The 912s in that airplane is unbelievable!
    I only got to fly around for about 30 minutes before my Dynon 10-EMS went black.....( working on that).
    I have never flown an airplane with flaperons. I have read many threads on the use of these for both take off and landings, so have gathered info there.
    I took off with 0 flap, or lever all the way down. I have the electric elevator trim on my plane so am able to remove forces that way. I noticed while in cruise at around 5250-5300 rpm at 4500 feet, that the forward vis was not great and that I was flying with a noticeable nose up attitude. I started to play with the flaps and noticed an immediate improvement to the forward view as the nose lowered substantially. Again, been a rookie with flaperons, is this a normal thing to do in a kitfox? I am used to flying with flaps up.....this you would think would be most efficient, but maybe not with flaperons. I never got a chance to notice if the airspeed was effected by this because I had the dynon failure shortly after.
    Also, many refer to flap settings as been either at 20, or 10, 30, etc. My flap lever has no notches or indicators.....so how do you know? Many say to never land full flap, while others seem to encourage it. Some never use them at all.
    I guess it's subjective at best.
    Anyway, any answer to these flap questions would be greatly appreciated! Most important right now is.....do you normally fly in cruise with the flaps extended slightly? Is this more efficient? Seems to be....but again never got a chance to watch the airspeed......
    Thanks guys

    Wade

  2. #2
    Senior Member Dave S's Avatar
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    Oct 2008
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    St Paul, MN
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    Default Re: New to flaperons

    Hi Wade,

    Welcome aboard!.....I can make some comments about what I have learned using the flaperons on our S7.....It's set up a bit different than the IV so it is not a direct comparison. Others with direct experience with the same model you have will likely help out.

    My first KF ride was in a IV with no detents on the flap setting...The pilot used the flap control as a trim device by adjusting it in small increments, but he did not have any trim device on the tail. A little adjustment does change the view out the front.


    1) Regarding the indications of how many degrees of deflection people report and use, it's a deal where the earlier Kitfoxes did not have positive detents but worked off an infinitely adjustable mode between the limits. On the later KFs - there is a positive detent...our S7 (it's an early 7 with the manual elevator trim) has retracted which works out to 1.5 degrees positive, 1/2 which is 11 degrees and full which is 22 degrees. On the systems without positive detents - a person can still guess/establish or somehow estimate the degrees of deflection but I don't think most of those systems have any marks. It is my understanding that the Current factory LSA kitfox has the detent but does not use the full flap setting...just goes to 1/2.

    2) Everything I understand about flaperons is they are good lift devices and do reduce stall speed but they just don't make real good drag brakes like the cessna barndoors which are identified as flaps. So we get real good at "Kitfox slips".

    3) On the partial vs full flap deployment on our s7 - half flaps reduces the stall speed about 5 mph; but, going to full only brings it down a very small amount additional. On the other hand, full flap deployment seems to put a person in control of a pretty good yaw generator and a bit more conscious application of rudder with alieron input is necessary.

    4) Considering the limited advantage of full flap on our s7 with the yaw characteristic pretty much means I normally see little reason to use full extension....maybe on a still wind day but otherwise I see it as not much advantage. Other's mileage may vary.

    5) Sitting on the ground, a person can observe full extension then work the alierions and it becomes entirely obvious why full extension can increase the yaw effect particularily if wrestling a variable cross wind at low speed.

    I think the best deal a pilot new to a kitfox can do is get out, get a lot of altitude then work with every configuration, speed, attitude, power settings and control motion a person can think of. It's different than a separate alieron/flap airplane. The flaperons do give a person a lot of roll authority at slow speeds compared to the separate flap/alieron designs. It also has to be less draggy when extended since the flaperon is essentially a separate airfoil without all the gaps that flaps and alierons have when displaced.

    Again, peoples preferences are not all the same and each of us figures out what ours are by testing the system out realizing it is not the same as a separate flap/alieron sustem...it has some advantages.

    Enjoy!

    Sincerely,

    Dave S
    KF 7 Trigear
    912ULS Warp Drive
    St Paul MN

  3. #3
    Senior Member cap01's Avatar
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    Apr 2009
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    yelm, wa
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    Default Re: New to flaperons

    dave has it pretty well covered . it didnt take too many hours on my model IV for me to realize that as flaps the flaperons didn't work very well . the only time i use flaps is for take off and they do make some difference there . i also gave up pretty quick on the flaperons as trim . naturally it required hand flying all the time with attention to altitude/attitude . after hundreds of hours flying that way without trim , a person does it with out thinking . probably the best mod that I've done on the plane is to install electric elevator trim . after flying with no trim so long , now with the electric trim its like having an autopilot .
    have fun and play with it at altitude and see what works best .
    chuck
    kitfox IV 1050
    912ul warpdrive
    flying B , yelm, wa

  4. #4
    Senior Member av8rps's Avatar
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    Oct 2009
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    Junction City, WI
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    Default Re: New to flaperons

    Wade,

    My model 4 did exactly what yours does, until I set my flaperons properly. Essentially your flaperons as currently set are trimming the nose up, and possibly even spilling off some lift if set so far as to be somewhat reflexed.

    When mine was set like that I noticed some instability (indicative of flap reflex) when the handle was all the way down. To fix mine I trimmed the elevator so it was neutral in flight, and then set the flaperon handle where I had the highest cruise speed, which also is where the airplane flew the flattest. I then landed without moving anything (flaps or elevator trim), measured the flaperon angle with an electronic angle device, and then adjusted the flaperons so the handle was all the way down when the flaperons were at the same angle position previously measured.

    My net result? My Kitfox 4 flies flat and fast when flaps are off and elevator trim is neutral. And my flaps work exceptionally well for adding lift for takeoff, or for flying at reduced speeds. And they also work pretty good for helping increase my descent. But slips still provide a steeper descent. So I typically use 1/2 flap for takeoffs and landings. If I'm really needing to get in and out short, I will use as much as full flap for takeoff and landing, but I keep a close eye on things, as full flaps does reduce roll control some.

    I've been flying Avids and Kitfoxes since 1986, and personally really like flaperons. But they have to be set properly to be most effective. Hopefully this will help you to get yours adjusted. Once you do you are going to absolutely love that Model 4. They are one sweet flying machine...

    Paul

  5. #5
    Senior Member Norm's Avatar
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    May 2013
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    Airdrie, North of Calgary
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    346

    Default Re: New to flaperons

    Wade
    I heard you were successful in your KitFox hunt. Welcome to the Dark Side.
    Norm

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Canada
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    187

    Default Re: New to flaperons

    Wade - you are ready to have some fun now EH

    Kitfox flapperons are all set different
    some limit them to 15 or 20 degrees and others will go 30degree +
    Once you understand how to use them and the attributes to having more flap available to take off from sticky ground( snow,mud, sand ) or float ops. You will join the camp shared by only a few of us that like 30 degrees for only take offs.

    Landings more than 15 degrees is really no benefit

    Early models 1,2 only 10 to 15 degree and really not needed on these light weights

    Model 4 started with different flapperons and differential built in 2 to 1 ratio. They were bigger and better . guys started limiting the flaps on the model 4 too. and missed out on a whole bunch of fun but the fun factor is shared by all kitfox owners and the real adrenaline junkies get to explore the envelope a little more.

  7. #7
    Senior Member kmach's Avatar
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    Nov 2009
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    Cupar, SK, Canada CLC4 Loon Creek Airfield
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    Default Re: New to flaperons

    Congrats on the new kitfox !

    It sounds like you have some flight testing to do and maybe some adjustments. You'll get it where you want it and is all right.

    Where are you Calgary fellows flying out of ?

    And also everyone loves pictures !
    Kevin,

    Kitfox Outback
    912 ULS
    Airmaster AP332CTFH-WWR70W
    Summit Aircraft Wheel Skis
    C-FOXW

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Calgary
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    Default Re: New to flaperons

    Thanks for all the great info guys!
    As mentioned I think the best thing I can do is go out and FLY, FLY ,FLY!!.
    As with other planes I have owned in the past, it's beneficial to do a bunch of slow flight and stalls at altitude to discover both what the airplane and of course the pilot wants and likes.
    Im hoping the Dynon 10-EMS failure is just a glitch, that way I can get back up possibly tomorrow. If not, I have to send it back to Dynon for repair/replacement. Stay tuned!
    I fly from a small grass roots strip called Chestermere Kirkby just east of Calgary. Ident is CFX8.....fantastic place 2000' grass strip......good home for the Fox
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  9. #9

    Join Date
    Jan 2015
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    Calgary
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    Default Re: New to flaperons

    Oops......heres the actual plane!
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  10. #10

    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Quesnel B.C.
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    121

    Default Re: New to flaperons

    Nice bird, congrats.
    Kurt A

    Kitfox II,
    Rotax 912,
    1100 gross
    Fixer Upper Project

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