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Thread: How much difference does a pax make to landing?

  1. #11
    Senior Member jiott's Avatar
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    Default Re: How much difference does a pax make to landing?

    With a heavy passenger, I actually notice more difference in the takeoff. If I use my normal solo technique of raising the tail a moderate amount and then just letting it fly off when its ready, with a pax it starts getting light on its feet before its ready to fly and it just dances around for a while. If there is any x-wind whatsoever during this dancing phase I find myself fighting to maintain centerline. So with a pax I change my T/O technique somewhat and lift the tail higher and keep it there longer to stay planted on the ground until its definitely ready to fly, then a little back pressure and we are smoothly off.
    Jim Ott
    Portland, OR
    Kitfox SS7 flying
    Rotax 912ULS

  2. #12
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    Smile Re: How much difference does a FAT pax make to landing?

    Get somebody fat and take them flying, and do a bunch of takeoffs and landings, that will help.
    Can you be a bit more specific please Jeff - Gayle does not have fat so I have kicked her out of the PAX seat for a while. I did find one very fat candidate but thought I might have trouble fitting in besides him! I think I now have a nicely rounded fat person (abit like myself). Pictures would help a lot.

    cheers

    ross
    Ross
    Mt Beauty, Vic
    OZ
    Sold to Richard and Scott Taubman in OZ, 2019. Kitfox SS7,Rotax 912is Sport, Airmaster CSP 75" blades.
    Landcruiser and Cub off road camper (doesn't get any kudos on this forum!)

  3. #13
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    Default Re: How much difference does a pax make to landing?

    Now to be serious .... Went flying today with Gayle - all 48kg of her and decided to get her to watch the ASI right on touch down and aimed to touch the tail first - got it three times in a row so happy with that and it makes for a very stable landing - you all know that but it is pleasing to have it soted in my mind!. Here's my 'recipe' for a standard circuit approach that seems to be yielding good results. cut power to 3000rpm on DW and trim to 55kts with one stage flaps. Maintain 55kts base and turn final at 350-400ft. Trim for 49-50kts on final, pwr as required to maintain approach to aiming pt. Bleed off pwr into flair and go for tail wheel first - touch down is 38-40kts.

    thanks for all your input - just need a few fat people now to establish the pwr settings on final....


    cheers

    ross
    Ross
    Mt Beauty, Vic
    OZ
    Sold to Richard and Scott Taubman in OZ, 2019. Kitfox SS7,Rotax 912is Sport, Airmaster CSP 75" blades.
    Landcruiser and Cub off road camper (doesn't get any kudos on this forum!)

  4. #14
    Rooster's Avatar
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    Default Re: How much difference does a pax make to landing?

    Thanks to CC Pocock, here are a couple of things to consider.....

    I found that with the KF5 and a heavy engine such as a Franklin, having fat people with me is not that bad.

    I actually add about 20kg ( Lbs 44) of sand ballast in my baggage comp when solo.

    The pages are in the wrong order, so you can sort through them and read it.
    A very interesting book and his courses are world renowned.
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    Last edited by Rooster; 01-27-2016 at 07:03 AM. Reason: To add explanation

  5. #15
    Rooster's Avatar
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    Default Re: How much difference does a pax make to landing?

    Page 48 of "Bush and Mountain Flying" by CC. Pocock.

    ISBN number - 978-0-620-49666-7
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    Last edited by Rooster; 01-27-2016 at 06:57 AM. Reason: To add ISBN number

  6. #16
    Senior Member rv9ralph's Avatar
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    Default Re: How much difference does a pax make to landing?

    Surprisingly, this YouTube video from Backcountry Flyers demonstrates this type of approach described on page 48.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrPJac80W9Y&spfreload=1

    Ralph

  7. #17
    Administrator DesertFox4's Avatar
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    Default Re: How much difference does a pax make to landing?

    Good video Ralph, thanks.


    DesertFox4
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  8. #18

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    Default Re: How much difference does a FAT pax make to landing?

    Quote Originally Posted by rosslr View Post
    Can you be a bit more specific please Jeff - Gayle does not have fat so I have kicked her out of the PAX seat for a while...
    I probably qualify as the nicely rounded fat person!
    I try to keep a trickle of power on during the flare with an adult pax... you've seen first hand that it doesn't always work as I can "bounce bigger and better than the best of them"
    Jono

  9. #19
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    Default Re: How much difference does a pax make to landing?

    I have never have a bad landing, top dat I have been able to walk away from them all. So by my definition they have all been good landings. I must admit some are a lot uglier than others.
    Paul Zimmermann
    LSRM-A
    Garland, Texas

  10. #20
    happiestflying's Avatar
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    Default Re: How much difference does a pax make to landing?

    Amongst the many benefits of having a GoPro mounted above and behind my head is the chance to review every takeoff and landing, not just from memory or the observations of a (fat?) passenger, but from the actual video. I've been working on the same landing issues as this thread, and have noticed from video review that my stall speeds are much much lower than I would have guessed. I say guessed, because I'm not looking at the airspeed indicator during landing.

    I find the concept of "and a few knots extra for safety" to be something that adds in a lot of extra landing distance, which is just fine in many circumstances, but not so good for the kinds of landings I'm hoping to achieve consistently. Perhaps a relatively high angle of attack, a steep descent, and a "juicing" of power at the proper instant needed to arrest that descent is more effective for me than carrying extra speed.

    When I have a passenger, the "juicing" comes a little sooner, and lasts a little longer. It's not particularly related to the flare, because at the speeds I'm using for approach a big flare input would just result in a stall/drop-it-in kind of landing.

    I love the GoPro for one other reason, which is using the video in combination with Google Earth's ruler to measure my landing distances. No more guessing, I can tell precisely how long it took to get it stopped. The only variables I can't observe are reported wind conditions and pilot readiness.
    Jeremy Wilson
    Kitfox IV Speedster

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